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i will let 4chan educate my kids for me

Raising kids does seem like a very difficult and time consuming thing. In high school, I used to babysit my much younger sister, the neighbors kids, and my older sister's kids a lot (there were all these very moody older pregnant people around and nice teachers and grandparents). I also had a job as a manager at a pizza place which was down the street from where I lived, so I worked all the time and went to school. I imagine that having raising kids would be similar to this situation only you would have more bills to pay and would be with the kid more often.

SwiftSpear wrote:Irrelevant of what a parent does, every child will fundamentally form their own individual personality temperament, which will ultimately dictate the types of things they like doing and are good at. The only thing the parent can do it see to it that the child has the appropriate environment and experiences to grow into the best thing they can be. And that doesn't mean spoiling or overprotecting the child. Real life has disappointment, real life has pain, those are lessons that need to be learned well. However, that also does not mean those are the only lessons that you should be teaching as a parent. Love and protection are also things children innately need to grow, the just must not be smothered.

I think that it's important to play while trying to teach kids things. They're kids and will learn new and much needed skills like reading, socializing, and exercising more readily if you do so. I don't think it's true that kids will fundamentally for their own individual personality temperament that will dictate what they like and dislike doing irrelevant of what the parent does. I know that being an older sister is not exactly the same thing as being a parent, but it was very obvious in my little sister when she was younger that I had a lot of influence on her. She used to want to go everywhere with me and do everything that I did, so I took her rollerskating, swimming (she was afraid of the pool), read books to her and all sorts of interesting stuff off the computer which I regularly found from being in the library club, built robots with her (from the robotics and programming club), and showed her things I learned from the space and art club. I also remember that I used to really look up to my older sister when I was younger as well.

Anyway, all of this shows that a child can be born with genetic predispositions to certain personality characteristics, but they can be influenced by there environment and be trained or taught different things. the way in which these these predispositions or the intensity to which they are expressed are determined by what the child has learned from the environment. For example, being OCD is not always a bad thing. A lot of famous geniuses would be classified as being OCD and they did great things. Plus, it is not unusual for computer scientists to be OCD and for the OCD to be encouraged in computer scientists at times.

A kid who is spoiled and gets everything he wants every time he screams is a snot-nosed brat.

I won't take anything away from play, play is definitely a primary learning activity... but they way a child plays when given an activity is fundamentally something that cannot be controlled. Most children can enjoy reading, but that doesn't mean that most children can enjoy non-fiction books. Usually the personality temperament of the child starts showing very clearly in the types of books they like. What books will be their favorite.

Also, some children will sit and read with you for hours, others will be ok for a short period before they want to put the book down and go do something with their hands instead. The latter, while they will probably not be illiterate, or stupid, will likely never like brain activities quite as much as doing activities, and will therefore devote more time do doing things, and develop more skill and ability in manipulating physical things.

These are some very very blanket examples, but what I'm saying is fundamentally, children can not be made into doctors or professors, if it's not a goal they are predisposed to be suited for they will simply find the path towards it frustrating and stressful. The worst thing a parent can do for a child is not understand that at a fundamental level the child must find his/her self and grow into tasks and endeavors that allow them to use the gifts they are born with. Basically, the parent should watch the child, find and understand that child's gifts, and then give them as many activities as possible that allow them to let those gifts thrive.

Panda & Swiftspear wrote:

ARGHsized Posts..

I think that Parents & Peergroups make up the most, so in that Aspect i agree with Panda. However, not all attempts of Parents to "level" there Kids up, succed.. and some psychotic -damaging Parent may produce a extraordinary Charakter (with the Risk of total Fail- thats why no goodwilling Parent would risk this)

For Cliche Example: Take Asuka out of NGE (completely forget about the Mechashow, just the Char) or all the other Borderliners, Hypercomunicators that make it to Daylight..

So what do you guess - did Chris Taylor had a difficult Childhood ?

Chris: There always was this Bad Guy, and this Aeon-Girl - and they stomped on my Toys in the Skinner Sandbox on the Playground... they were evil, real Pirates, so i decided that one day... i would give it back to them.. buhuuuhuuu!

Comp1337 wrote:i will let 4chan educate my kids for me

And maddox. 5 accross the face on good days, knuckle dusters on bad.

SwiftSpear wrote:I won't take anything away from play, play is definitely a primary learning activity... but they way a child plays when given an activity is fundamentally something that cannot be controlled. Most children can enjoy reading, but that doesn't mean that most children can enjoy non-fiction books. Usually the personality temperament of the child starts showing very clearly in the types of books they like. What books will be their favorite.

Also, some children will sit and read with you for hours, others will be ok for a short period before they want to put the book down and go do something with their hands instead. The latter, while they will probably not be illiterate, or stupid, will likely never like brain activities quite as much as doing activities, and will therefore devote more time do doing things, and develop more skill and ability in manipulating physical things.

These are some very very blanket examples, but what I'm saying is fundamentally, children can not be made into doctors or professors, if it's not a goal they are predisposed to be suited for they will simply find the path towards it frustrating and stressful. The worst thing a parent can do for a child is not understand that at a fundamental level the child must find his/her self and grow into tasks and endeavors that allow them to use the gifts they are born with. Basically, the parent should watch the child, find and understand that child's gifts, and then give them as many activities as possible that allow them to let those gifts thrive.

A healthy child with the proper education opportunities could be made into a doctor or professor given that there are so many kinds of doctors and professors out there (Please don't think that I'm saying that people are just like dogs when I say that. That is so shallow). Genetic predispositions aren't that specific in how they are expressed. Some traits are never expressed due to environmental influences and others that are expressed can have there expression minimized or intensified through various ways.

However, the goal is, hopefully, not to so much control the child as it is to teach him or her to think for him or herself and to offer some sort of guidance to them. This can be done by offering the most beneficial educational opportunities to the child that can be offered to him or her. Talents can be hard to spot especially at a young age and if you aren't going by stereotypes and can change over time. The child must learn (this is an on-going process the same as growth is) self-discipline in order to aid in consciously controlled adaptation.

Sorry, Panda to let Reality intefer - you don´t get Professor or CEO by beeing well cared & guided for - take a closer look on the Institutions the "Elite" passes there Offspring through. You don´t get that reckless ahead in a cruel world like this - if your Sister teaches social values and the ability to feel with others *..

Sucess at certain Dimensions has a Price not paid in money..


*There might be one or two snot-nosed brats who take that as the 2.1. Lesson "How-to-easier-manipulate-others!".

Also, some children will sit and read with you for hours, others will be ok for a short period before they want to put the book down and go do something with their hands instead.

maybe you shouldn't be looking at playboy with your children

PicassoCT wrote:Sorry, Panda to let Reality intefer - you don´t get Professor or CEO by beeing well cared & guided for - take a closer look on the Institutions the "Elite" passes there Offspring through. You don´t get that reckless ahead in a cruel world like this - if your Sister teaches social values and the ability to feel with others *..

Sucess at certain Dimensions has a Price not paid in money..


*There might be one or two snot-nosed brats who take that as the 2.1. Lesson "How-to-easier-manipulate-others!".

I don't really know any "Elite", but I always figured that they were people too. Do you? I think that the price not paid in money would be relative isolation. Surely there's a variety of elite people. There are plenty of non-elite people who are reckless and/or assholes and I've met quite a few good professors and doctors who appear to have social values. I don't think that the professors that I know are considered to be extremely elite (They don't own huge corporations or anything.), but they are well-educated and seem to do well. They appear to be more concerned with exploring whatever they're studying than manipulating others. I'm sure that there are people who get ahead by being scum of the earth, slimy people, but not everyone gets ahead that way. Also, people have a better chance of getting ahead if they have people genuinely being supportive of them regardless of of what there goals are, and even then getting ahead still wouldn't be easy.

Panda wrote:

Some Truths.

However i do know one or two"of the Upper Crust" - and they are reckless Assholes, because Shareholders &the Market reward that kind of behaviour...


University however is a diffrent Playground, where networking, (and at least pretending you worship)social values are indeed important to Stay on Top- however, if you look twice you will find even inside the Universitys some invisible walls, my Aunt ran into one of these ...

I agree with you that there are invisible walls (women don't get the highest positions in business) and that there are reckless asshole upper crust people out there or that a lot of people put on false pretenses at universities. I was saying that it isn't likely that they're all that way or that they don't have social values. Undoubtedly, their social values are somewhat different due to the difficult decisions that they have to face on a day to day basis, but I don't think that means that all of them don't have any social values or that they're complete assholes. I'm trying to think of an example of someone who is upper class and isn't an asshole. Hmm ... I saw some guy shareholders couple of times and don't really remember them. They wouldn't count. I'm a Biology major and am not into business, so I couldn't tell you a whole lot about shareholders. The queen of England sounds like someone who would have English social values. It's difficult to make judgments about who has social values when you're main source of information is the media or even books, which are slanted towards a certain point of view. Anyway, I don't think it's right to call them all assholes when they (the very upper class people, not just any shareholders) have lifestyles which would be difficult to people who don't live like them to even fathom because it's so different due to the great amount of responsibility involved in regularly making decisions that affect so many people. I bet it would be neat to ask the queen of England how she was doing and what's her favorite thing to eat for breakfast is, but I'm sure she doesn't have time to answer those sorts of questions. As far as professors go, I met an English teacher once who was very concerned and helpful when she noticed that I seemed a little down and asked me what was wrong. I don't know what I would have done without teachers like her, especially since I'm a first-generation college student. It sucked when she left the university.

i think i see a wall of text
but i cant see, theres a wall in the way

Panda wrote:The queen of England sounds like someone who would have English social values. It's difficult to make judgments about who has social values when you're main source of information is the media or even books, which are slanted towards a certain point of view.

First Thing, british UpperClass doesen`t count - they are trained to fullfill the "perfect Ladys&Gentleman"cliche on first met.. that is as far as i know about them. I know only one good and some bad Examples in Germany - and well the Profgossip about who has whos Son/daughter for Graduation.

Maybe Germany is a bad Example itself with it`s 80 percent of Universitystudents beeing children of Academics.. and as i agree that Education forms much of the possibilities of a Human, i always asked myself "where is the difference between up and low" and my conclusions was that they not nessesarylie have to do with more (parents) time spended or a flood of Toys..

For a fact, some of those UP really get rid of there Kids at Age of 10 (or even earlier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schule_Schloss_Salem

So i come to some strange conclusions:Well guided Lack of personal Property "can"lead to a greed on Akkumulation of Intellectuell Property

Surgical lack of Attention can transform a normal Child in a lifelong workaholic (working to get praise from others).. the Question is, is that what you should want to acomplish? Dead at 50 for your Offspring because of Heart attck ?

That´s the really tough part of education, finding a way between the Horrors mentioned above and the overprotection everyone naturally goes for..

Concerning Invisible Walls:
Still to be found - but conditions are slowly improving - problem with Quoten(don´t know the Enlgishword - sorry) is that they completely devalue the personal efforts taken to reach that goal. Sadly there sometimes seems no other way to archieve Fair Competition. Those Nice Teachers mentioned by you are always the first to quit - they usually don´t survive the "Hack&Slay" in the Staffroom or suffer from selfoverexpactation that get´s them burnout on "Difficult Cases" (Students&Kids who have Talent, but were educated by TV only).



PS: LEGO is a absolutly must. Best conventional Toy for a child that you want to develop a Love for Construction and Problemsolving. Nowhere did i lay the Advertismentscheck...

PS2: Chris Taylor at least can´t complain we derailed his Thread!

PicassoCT wrote:Maybe Germany is a bad Example itself with it`s 80 percent of Universitystudents beeing children of Academics..

That isn't the case over here, though most university students are, at least from middle class family's with parents who have college degrees.

PicassoCT wrote:and as i agree that Education forms much of the possibilities of a Human, i always asked myself "where is the difference between up and low" and my conclusions was that they not nessesarylie have to do with more (parents) time spended or a flood of Toys..

For a fact, some of those UP really get rid of there Kids at Age of 10 (or even earlier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schule_Schloss_Salem

We don't have schools like that over here, boarding schools. I read about one of my favorite authors who went to a boarding school while growing up and she hated it. I'm not sure what to think boarding schools. I've never been to one, but the article makes it sound nice.

PicassoCT wrote:So i come to some strange conclusions:Well guided Lack of personal Property "can"lead to a greed on Akkumulation of Intellectuell Property

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying, but it does sound strange. Are you trying to say that people who are well-guided and have a lack of personal property may become greedy about the accumulation of intellectual property? I don't know if I'd call a well-guided person with a lack of personal property greedy for intellectual property. A person with a lack of personal property comes from a different social class that, while they may want to be educated, often doesn't have access to the same kinds of educational methods or materials that the class that the person is moving into has. In order to do well in their new place they have to learn how to communicate and work with the people in the higher social class. They can not do this if they are ignorant, making it necessary for them to obtain knowledge not greedy.

Someone who has the potential to move up in social classes must also have a few other characteristics. They have to be intelligent enough to be able to adjust and learn all of the new things that they need to learn, determined, and relatively healthy.

An intelligent person, also, is normally curious. It's good to give them something descent to learn by sending them to school or letting them socialize. People learn with all 5 senses. If they experience sensory deprivation their mind will start to feed on itself. An intelligent person could not be greedy and need the extra mental stimulation or have an effect similar to the one that sensory deprivation would have.

PicassoCT wrote:Surgical lack of Attention can transform a normal Child in a lifelong workaholic (working to get praise from others)..

I don't think that a lack of attention usually turns a child into a lifelong workaholic, especially if they're not obsessive.

PicassoCT wrote:the Question is, is that what you should want to acomplish? Dead at 50 for your Offspring because of Heart attck ?

The goal would be to give your children the opportunity to work in a more fulfilling career while obtaining a job that you would be better suited for and is higher paying. You would need to be able to adequately provide you're children with food and place to live while they're growing up. Your children could, for instance, work as a marine biologist (learning about sea turtles, moon jellies, and scuba diving in the reefs in the Florida Keys ), programmer, or whatever else they want to do as opposed to having much more limited opportunities and be more likely to work as a secretary or a restaurant manager for the rest of their lives. Those jobs make it very difficult to provide for yourself much less a family.

There a ways to fend off a heart attack as well so you won't die at 50 (jogging, swimming, eating oatmeal to lower cholesteral, etc.), but I suppose there are worse ways to die and we've all got to die some day.

PicassoCT wrote:Concerning Invisible Walls:
Still to be found - but conditions are slowly improving - problem with Quoten(don´t know the Enlgishword - sorry) is that they completely devalue the personal efforts taken to reach that goal. Sadly there sometimes seems no other way to archieve Fair Competition. Those Nice Teachers mentioned by you are always the first to quit - they usually don´t survive the "Hack&Slay" in the Staffroom or suffer from selfoverexpactation that get´s them burnout on "Difficult Cases" (Students&Kids who have Talent, but were educated by TV only).

What do you mean by Hack & Slay in the staff room?

PicassoCT wrote:PS: LEGO is a absolutly must. Best conventional Toy for a child that you want to develop a Love for Construction and Problemsolving. Nowhere did i lay the Advertismentscheck...

Lego technics can be good for learning about robotics. Please clarify Advertismentscheck?

PicassoCT wrote:PS2: Chris Taylor at least can´t complain we derailed his Thread!

I think it's a little late to make a new thread of this topic. At least, I broke up the wall of text this time.

Long post is long O_o

Long Post needs to be Long, because Topic is that important. I really have to admit that some of the sentences written down in my last post are far away from easy Understanding. Sorry for that.

People need some Space to define themselfes, by the Things they claim as belonging to them, the Things they produced, even if those little things are just Toys and your Room, they are Milestones defining the `Yours and Mine` difference. Now take that away, from any person, what remains is memorys, abstract information, taken out of Media you can borrow. In this way all your worldly treasures will become collected Information - if - and thats a big if- if you don´t use other means (like drugs) to escape.
Thats why such a method would need constant guidance.

Now for the surgical lack of Attention - thats something you have to imagine like a deaf parent. He or She won´t look at anything you acomplish as a child, may it be a painting or selfwritten music - just in those moments were you really do brilliant you get a small blink of a smile. As one can imagine such a process doesen´t go along without scaring..
One of the Persons i had the pleasure to know, was a workaholic, small guy, always trying on perfection, and he didn´t do it for the money, he did it for the praise of others. Reason was that both of his parents had died during WWII and this (of course unsurgical, unguided) lack of Attention, made him the man he is today.

And Panda - one Question- what would you do, if the child completely refuses all the Opportunitys offered? Accept & Retreat, or manipulation because of better knowing ?

Hack&Slay in the Staffroom, means that in all Institutions were Social Skills are needed (School, Hospitals, Hotels) there is a constant forging of Alliances, mobbing and going against each others Backs as working Atmosphere between the Staffmembers. Friendly People usually don´t get along with such atmosphere without becoming at least cynical over time.

Another Brick in the Wall of Text..

PicassoCT wrote:People need some Space to define themselfes, by the Things they claim as belonging to them, the Things they produced, even if those little things are just Toys and your Room, they are Milestones defining the `Yours and Mine` difference. Now take that away, from any person, what remains is memorys, abstract information, taken out of Media you can borrow.

I think that people should watch out for this idea of defining themselves by things they claim as their own. Maybe those things that they claim will eventually own them, taking away some of their freedom to do other things because they have to spend so much time taking care of what they "own". They put all that time and effort into keeping that possession when it can be taken away so easily whether it be by a natural disaster or just by loosing it.

Why would you define memories as abstract information taken out of media that can be borrowed? Muscle memory is a type of memory and I'm sure there are other kinds of memories too.

PicassoCT wrote:In this way all your worldly treasures will become collected Information - if - and thats a big if- if you don´t use other means (like drugs) to escape. Thats why such a method would need constant guidance.

Are you saying that when a person's main source of worldly possessions is information they need constant guidance? I disagree with that because I think that we are not just a collection of memories or information. Memories and information influence us, but they're not what we are. Even though this is the case, we do all need some sort of guidance, at least some of the time.

PicassoCT wrote:Now for the surgical lack of Attention - thats something you have to imagine like a deaf parent. He or She won´t look at anything you acomplish as a child, may it be a painting or selfwritten music - just in those moments were you really do brilliant you get a small blink of a smile. As one can imagine such a process doesen´t go along without scaring..One of the Persons i had the pleasure to know, was a workaholic, small guy, always trying on perfection, and he didn´t do it for the money, he did it for the praise of others. Reason was that both of his parents had died during WWII and this (of course unsurgical, unguided) lack of Attention, made him the man he is today.

Surgical lack of attention sounds creepy and unguided lack of attention from parents doesn't mean that the didn't get some sort of attention from someone. There are case of people out there who have had a serious lack of attention. These were people who were found to have grown up in the wilderness, without interaction with other people. The didn't know how to and could never fully learn how to speak though they could communicate through non-verbal means.

PicassoCT wrote:And Panda - one Question- what would you do, if the child completely refuses all the Opportunitys offered? Accept & Retreat, or manipulation because of better knowing ?

I couldn't really tell a parent exactly what to do in that situation. There are always situations in parenting or life in general that you can't be fully prepared for. What kinds of options are those, accept and retreat or manipulation because of better knowing? Older siblings and maybe a lot of parents often think they know better simply because they're older and have all of this experience, when mainly what they know is what happened in situations that they perceive to be similar to ones that they'd experienced and not actually what's going on. I think that the parent should try their best to listen to any ideas that the kid could have. A kid who keeps refusing what is offered may have something else in mind. The kid could learning and wanting to learn about something different, possibly he or she may need to learn more about himself or herself. Having a different experience is one way to help him or her do that. Sitting there with them and listening patiently is a good way to go (and by listening I mean actually listening and being interested in what they have to say, not just criticizing.) and if he or she is withdrawn you could always smile at them (physiological and psychological studies show that smiling is a mood lifter even if you aren't in a particularly good mood and smiling is something that is recognized world-wide, unlike other aspects of non-verbal communication.) A found this song and video to be mood lifting and amusing:

Smile!
Smile! If the rain outside the window won't stop...
Smile! If you failed to do something...
Smile! If happiness hid behind the clouds...
Smile! Even if your soul got slightly scratched...

Smile! And you'll see how everything changes...
Smile! The rain will stop and the ground will dress up in snow...
Smile! And your sorrow will pass by...
Smile! And then your soul will begin to live... (more) (less)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2W_35mgBwk (ROFL. That guy is very funny. Smoth smiles like that sometimes. )

PicassoCT wrote:Hack&Slay in the Staffroom, means that in all Institutions were Social Skills are needed (School, Hospitals, Hotels) there is a constant forging of Alliances, mobbing and going against each others Backs as working Atmosphere between the Staffmembers. Friendly People usually don´t get along with such atmosphere without becoming at least cynical over time.

Another Brick in the Wall of Text..

Ok.

Would anyone say that the length of this post has beaten the length some of Caydr's long posts?

Hey, don´t let me & yourself get Megalomaniac. Cadyr & Arghs Post are Visible from Space like the Chinese Wall of Text...

PS: The creepy Creature i am, has to rain on the smiling Parade, don´t hate me for that Panda. Recent Research has shown that constant smile against & over your true feelings lead to depressions. As Examples shown were a Chinese Olympian Hostess and the japaneses Culture, were smiling ist the Standard Reply even if you are "wounded" in an Argument.

Maybee Rantman, Chris Taylor did smile to much, and now he is depressed..

Some things in SupCom are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on SupComs gristle,
Don't grumble, give a whistle,
And this'll help things turn out for the best, and...
always look on the pirate side of life...

You'll see it's all a show,
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

waaiit...wtf is going on .-.?