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Felix: Fang didn't discount that. In fact, he indicated he feels the legal immigration is currently problematic as well.

However, it's not an either or solution. Fixing legal immigration does not fix illegal immigration, it just polarizes illegal immigrants into a different category. If it's easy and quick to legally immigrate, than if you don't legally immigrate when you immigrate the assumption is that you are probably up to no good, since you don't have any identity in order.

I agree with fang, two sides of a coin on a problem, both should be addressed.

Fanger wrote:Step 1: Secure the borders, find out how, why, where, who, and what is making it so people can get into and out of America so easily (and not just along the mexican border), but everywhere, because seriously it might not just be mexicans sneaking in to do stuff. Once you know what the problem is, fix the problem thus making it no longer easy or simple for people to cross the border.. if this mandates a wall, or increased patrols, or something else then so be it..

This is where the problem is though. Bureaucracy doesn't work that efficiently. Unless something is done about the root cause (poverty) Mexicans and other Refugees will constantly be coming to America with the view that it is the "land of opportunity."

And even if you do get it set up so that you can hold back everyone, did you really help anyone but yourself? The Challenge is allowing people who are seeking refuge in, and preventing everyone else from ruining it for those that deserve to be here.

It's not a clear cut solution, though there are some solutions that are more clear cut then others.

cong06 wrote:

Fanger wrote:Step 1: Secure the borders, find out how, why, where, who, and what is making it so people can get into and out of America so easily (and not just along the mexican border), but everywhere, because seriously it might not just be mexicans sneaking in to do stuff. Once you know what the problem is, fix the problem thus making it no longer easy or simple for people to cross the border.. if this mandates a wall, or increased patrols, or something else then so be it..

This is where the problem is though. Bureaucracy doesn't work that efficiently. Unless something is done about the root cause (poverty) Mexicans and other Refugees will constantly be coming to America with the view that it is the "land of opportunity."

And even if you do get it set up so that you can hold back everyone, did you really help anyone but yourself? The Challenge is allowing people who are seeking refuge in, and preventing everyone else from ruining it for those that deserve to be here.

It's not a clear cut solution, though there are some solutions that are more clear cut then others.

Solution. Let them come, legally immigrate them.

SwiftSpear wrote:Solution. Let them come, legally immigrate them.

but what's the definition of a "legal"immigrant? A person who is:
1) seeking refuge from other country for specific and reasonably strong reasons
2) a person who has shown he can contribute to the system.

The second one is a bit easier to prove then the second one in most cases.

And like I said, it's not going to be easy to prevent people from sidestepping the rules. Especially if there's a significant motive. (like seeking refuge)

cong06 wrote:

SwiftSpear wrote:Solution. Let them come, legally immigrate them.

but what's the definition of a "legal"immigrant? A person who is:
1) seeking refuge from other country for specific and reasonably strong reasons
2) a person who has shown he can contribute to the system.

The second one is a bit easier to prove then the second one in most cases.

And like I said, it's not going to be easy to prevent people from sidestepping the rules. Especially if there's a significant motive. (like seeking refuge)

A person who has filed identity and citizenship papers. It doesn't really matter what they can contribute, we don't know what any random American child will contribute before they grow up, and we don't kick them out of the country. People will find a place to be useful.

If you aren't legally registered as a citizen though... you can't really be considered a legal immigrant because you haven't really agreed to be American or follow American law. People who live in the US under that condition should either be forced to legally immigrate or leave.

Zpock wrote:

Utter wrong, but must admit that made me laugh :) . No words can work so well sometimes...

/me thinks that we need the whole world under a single govern, and it must be a decent one, an unhappyfull it probally wont be, but still sounds better than the people-crushing competition between countries we have today (Example: Chinenes work like slaves for their country to be able to sell stuff cheaper than others)

First i am a left wing and proud of that, so i disagree with a lot of what Lathan says. But you have to admit that the Conservatives have a very well developed Sence for Social Phailfunctions, although they really mess things up, when asked to solve the Problems.

What really could become a Problem for US&A is not Spanish language, but the import of the "Banana-state-Mentality" including the Importance of the Military in Society, Corruption in highest Places - the usual "South-America" Syndrom. First you have to admit that Integration can go terribly wrong, especially if you not allow them to participate and just abuse them for cheapwageslavery, giving them no reason to learn english (they wouldn´t benefit from it, as illegals have to avoid the English talking Natives anyway because of risks involved)

And coming to refugee problems: Some Nations have messed up the Middle East resulting in 4 Mio Refugees on the move. Now, some Nations, have to take this on there shoulders, including the Axis of Evil: Syria, EU... just US&A get away for free..

SO you need them for cheap wages in the remaining south factorys - you should at least give them the Chance to get legal for good behaviour. Any other way around they will become - sooner than later - what is so called homegrown
terrorists. Man i should stop posting.. to much beer, where was the point... the point is that Lathan is right with the Problem, but has definatly not one good solution posted, beside the usual shoothemall... and he still has not posted a Citymap, whic is the true reason why i am angry. Shit . Stop Posting, get going ... Me is voting for Lathan making Skyscrapers..

+10000

and he still has not posted a Citymap, whic is the true reason why i am angry. Shit . Stop Posting, get going ... Me is voting for Lathan making Skyscrapers..

+9001... Alright everybody, lets put our fireball dispensers down NAO! Lathan! Moar work!

Going a bit off topic:

Why is everone so excited about a city map? Personally I wouldnt like loads of buildings blocking my build space... :)

Its porn to look at.
Same with the tree map

would make a good com shooter map ;P and a good map in general

Illegal immigration (in the US) is currently an unsolvable problem because too few Americans care. My analysis goes like this:

Why do immigrants come here in the first place? Mostly they want to work. They know they can make more money here than in their home countries, even doing simple jobs.

If illegal immigrants come here to work then fixing the problem ought to be as simple as removing the jobs. And that's what we've tried to do - it's already illegal to employ illegal immigrants. The problem is that too many people simply don't care, and employ them anyway.

Think about it... an estimated 10+ million illegal immigrants. That's at least hundreds of thousands of Americans who are illegally employing them. And it's not like the employers don't know better... they just don't care.

There are even government buildings where illegal immigrants go to be hired illegally! We have one here in Dallas, and I know other cities also have them.

As long as thousands of employers are willing to break the law and hire illegal immigrants, we'll never solve the problem of illegal immigration. Particularly if the government doesn't bother to enforce its own employment laws. And unfortunately, it may be too late to plug the employment hole anyway. If you think illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy now, what would 10+ million disgruntled unemployed Hispanics look like? (Hint: look just south of the border to get an idea)

part of the problem is the damn bureaucracy. people who do want to come here legally are held by shitloads of stupid paperwork and response periods that take several months longer than they claim to, not to mention the lack of oversight of a lot of the immigration approval groups' actions - america needs to fix its problem with legal immigration, becuase that will give some resources to help solve the illegal immigration problem.

That : They come only to work here thing is a Ilusion that is existing on both sides. If you were a Illegale, you for shure didn´t cross the border to have a good time with friendly Rednecks. You came to work & to return one day. THe Problem is, that is a ilusion, one that can last pretty long, and if not solved some dayz leads into violence...

They are there, they are needed there Illegal (no American would work for there Wages - Illegal can´t join Unions) and they will stay, you just use the Momentum, reward them for learning English and by sending there Kids to school - creating the Economical growth of Tomorrow...

Dragon45 wrote:part of the problem is the damn bureaucracy. people who do want to come here legally are held by shitloads of stupid paperwork and response periods that take several months longer than they claim to, not to mention the lack of oversight of a lot of the immigration approval groups' actions - america needs to fix its problem with legal immigration, becuase that will give some resources to help solve the illegal immigration problem.

Months of paperwork? Nonsense.

People have been known to wait up to ten years to legally immigrate to the US. Legal immigration is a long, involved, costly, paperwork-intensive process. It quite often requires hiring an attorney in the US to argue on your behalf and grease the system.

Hell, if I lived elsewhere and wanted to come live in the US, I'd immigrate illegally.

Exactly.. However that doesnt justify illegal immigration.. and illegal immigration is not only a problem because of people from mexico.. if people from there can get in unnoticed.. who else can..

Legal immigration needs to be examined.. and streamlined.. and then the rules need to be ENFORCED..

Also we need to crack down on people who hire illegal immigrants.. and so forth.. Essentially the laws regarding this need to be ENFORCED by the damn government.. and some tweaking needs to be done to remove bloat and other nonsense that is not neccessary to screen people.

I still dont understand why people think this is a moral issue.. sure if you want to sit around and question the right of nations to determine what goes on in their borders.. and other things like that.. great.. go debate Locke, Hobbs and so forth.. we can decide what rights people have in a natural state and so forth.. as for how it actually works in the real world.. This is a simple issue, of the laws need to be enforced, and examined..

then let the laws be enforced both ways - make the legal immigration bureaucrats stand by their statements and simplify the process.

Problem is: If people dont care to have the law be accomplished, how is it going to be? Remember: A govern is made from its people

Saying that the populace in america doesn't care is horsecrap. They tried to pass amnesty and people came out of the woodwork to oppose it.

What we want is policed borders and a damn wall. Once we stop the huge influx of illegals, FIX THE DAMN LEGAL PROCESS. :/


The only way I would support illegal immigration is if we moved to the Fair Tax system, cause then the tax base would be INCREDIBLY HUGE. Figure thise, now they are saying between 20 - 30 million illegals. If you implement the fair tax, you enlarge your tax base by 20 - 30 million people, and those people would actually be paying taxes, hell I'd be much more ok with that situation.

The tax base would actually increase somewhere around double what it is now. Don't tell me that "Everyone" files their taxes every single year, cause anyone with common sense knows that is bull.


Quick rundown of the fair tax for those of you who don't know. It gets rid of the IRS (more money to government... a lot more because of that), it gets rid of yearly income taxes, etc etc.

What it does is increase sales tax to a standard rate. THis means that anyone who buys anything in the US is paying their taxes.

People argue that it isn't fair to the poor, rich etc. THe thing is, the poorer people generally buy less, and the rich people tend to buy a lot, so who is actually paying more of a "Fair Share" here? This entire concept of a "Fair Share" is complete bullshit. Re-Distribution of wealth is stupid, someone works all his life, manages to make a fortune, so they should be penalized for it? Bill Gates should be penalized because he's successful? Horse crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax