New notAlobby announcement

New notAlobby announcement

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PepeAmpere
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New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 04 Nov 2015, 01:09

Image

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is new notAlobby. This lobby satisfy GPL license demands and its new official client for NOTA.

The new lobby is not linking unitsync.dll as previous version of the lobby did. Now, we are using own way of identifying games versions and maps. For the first look it seems that new lobby is not supporting other games/projects. It is true, but only in part. We had to choose technical solution which doesn't ruin our time-budget and at least satisfy our needs. To make it compatible with other game projects it would take much time and other resources from us. We hope you understand this decision.

Of course, this does not mean we are not open for real cooperation in the future!

Technical things

The obsolete lobby which was considered to crossing rules of this community is no longer available on:
Its sources won't be released. Let's think that "the school bus" knocked down the computer where the sources were stored. We no longer support it and no longer distribute it. We also actively remove any problematic old content - e.g. if there exist some forgotten link or version of given client (so we encourage you to contact us in case you find such thing).

We hope that our future relationship will be guided by common interests and expect that there will be no big fights once we do this step.

As reaction for this announcement (and as long we will follow what we promise above), we expect that:
  • NOTA project won't be no longer blocked in any sense on this forum and springrts page
  • All filteres blocking referencing NOTA projects pages, blocking NOTA news in all spring rts channels will be removed
  • Also there wont be done any future actions to NOTA content on springfiles.com and other shared repositories
  • There will be removed any other technical or personal provisions blocking specifically NOTA related stuff in shared infrastructure.
We also hope any member of NOTA dev project will be no longer target of extra moderation effort :twisted: (that was joke).

Speaking openly,
  • danil_kalina (NOTA Game Lobby developer)
  • PepeAmpere (NOTA project representative)
(announcing this together, so from this time new lobby is part of NOTA project, to make that clear for people from outside and to be sure there is just one point of contact for any future issues)

original full lenght version of this announcement is on our page
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gajop
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by gajop » 04 Nov 2015, 02:24

Seems good, unless there are some issues left to resolve, I see no reason why the block can't be lifted.

Since you wrote more on the NOTA site, I'll quote from that:
Someone thinks that GPL is the only right and true way of living on that sinful planet.
It doesn't matter what license people pick as long as no Spring engine or community project license is violated. It's not weird to prefer open source though, but that's just a preference that you don't have to share.
but we consider the attempts to block someones and not to block the others for the same deal as extremely dangerous
I agree, it's extremely hypocritical, and you won't see me doing that. I don't know of any current project violating a Spring project license that isn't blocked.
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hokomoko
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by hokomoko » 04 Nov 2015, 08:20

Good to hear.
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Silentwings
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by Silentwings » 04 Nov 2015, 09:05

Good to see progress, I'd be interested to hear how your singleplayer part works.

The engine devs asked to be shown evidence of the reimplementation in this post, so I guess the next thing to do is contact them privately and provide it!
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PepeAmpere
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 04 Nov 2015, 11:11

Silentwings wrote:The engine devs asked to be shown evidence of the reimplementation in this post, so I guess the next thing to do is contact them privately and provide it!
It is no secret.

We use own versions of maps and mods/games and only those are accepted by our lobby. Its no longer possible to play any other game with our lobby, because we do not consider any other content to be valid. All valid content is created by us and during the creation process all data normally hidden inside packed files are currently exposed to lobby in special file not part of module file.

Of course opposite way the integration is not broken, our content is still Spring-valid content for any other client.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by Forboding Angel » 05 Nov 2015, 05:19

Can you please host your lobby download on google drive? Your current download server is painfully slow.

0.8.1 is available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B25BbZ ... sp=sharing
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smoth
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by smoth » 05 Nov 2015, 06:51

PepeAmpere wrote:
Silentwings wrote:The engine devs asked to be shown evidence of the reimplementation in this post, so I guess the next thing to do is contact them privately and provide it!
It is no secret.

We use own versions of maps and mods/games and only those are accepted by our lobby. Its no longer possible to play any other game with our lobby, because we do not consider any other content to be valid. All valid content is created by us and during the creation process all data normally hidden inside packed files are currently exposed to lobby in special file not part of module file.

Of course opposite way the integration is not broken, our content is still Spring-valid content for any other client.
Is there a way to submit maps for eligibility or request to get the descriptor for the data file you need for your lobby?
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PepeAmpere
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 05 Nov 2015, 07:59

Forboding Angel wrote:Can you please host your lobby download on google drive? Your current download server is painfully slow.
Can you tell me in which time you tried to download and what speeds you had? (so we can check the statistics). We pay not symbolic money to our provider for good speeds and if the problem was on our side, he should fix it. In Czech republic (Prague) I have speeds around 50-70Mbit/s. I would expect for US downloads its slower but not as much.
Forboding Angel wrote:0.8.1 is available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B25BbZ ... sp=sharing
If there would be serious problems with connection, we will think about using some cloud service for distributions. The good thing is that there is reliable auto-update mechanism in new lobby so even with old installer you can get to the newest version of lobby even with this file in the future :mrgreen:
smoth wrote:Is there a way to submit maps for eligibility or request to get the descriptor for the data file you need for your lobby?
Currently it is possible just on interpersonal level ("you ask, we do that :)"), there is no automatic way. Our main goal was to make it work for our game. This way for example we also prevent that users of NOTA choose bad combination of maps, game versions and campaign missions.

Some automatic subscription of content was in our mind (also as support for other Spring projects to provide them some universal lobby) but such thing can happen only if we see strong regular interest. Last adventure with universal client cost us a lot :-).

So practical:

As we said we are open for any co-op. Send personal message about what type of content we talk about or what kind of lobby usage you think about and we will see.
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smoth
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by smoth » 05 Nov 2015, 11:59

Well, as it stands I am looking at getting a "final" version of all my old GRTS maps out. The idea being that I am going to move on to a new map set and style in the future. Those were all meant to "belong" as in aesthetically the same style. So I am restoring my data from an old HD right now, after that I am going to be putting out(barring odd bugs) a final version of my maps with no GRTS_ in front and updates here and there. Hopefully where i can archive the source files and move on to NEW material.

What do you need from me at release for these maps? I will understand if you do not approve of them for NOTA/NOTALOBBY but I figure I am going to go through each one soon, then put a private version on my site for people to test. If you need me to include something in the maps you guys feel are good for nota, by all means tell me at the time. Just putting it out there if you need an extra config in the file or something I can add it.
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PepeAmpere
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 05 Nov 2015, 14:19

smoth wrote:Just putting it out there if you need an extra config in the file or something I can add it.
For this case its enough to release map as you do usually (on springfiles.com or any other regular place) and ping us about its existence. If we are happy with the map for NOTA, we just take the map, unpack/read data&create config/pack it back and than put it to our distribution system. After that its ready to be used.

Just btw, choice of maps for NOTA is mainly based on NOTA gameplay specifics (big map, conservative heights, proper style, proper content,...). In current distribution we want to maximize synergy of different content combinations (some pre-selection from our side was needed to avoid crazy combos which happens too often to newbie users e.g. NOTA game on 8x8 map).
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smoth
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by smoth » 06 Nov 2015, 13:53

Totally fair.
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8611z
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by 8611z » 07 Nov 2015, 10:59

On http://nota.machys.net/downloads is an old picture with "NOTA 4.0 lobby 'Toxic'"

Bit ago I had tested version nota-0.7.2.msi, no idea how different this one is.

1) Setup nota-0.7.2.msi asks where to install.
2) I enter: c:\games\nota
3) It only puts two shortcuts in that folder. The actual files were copied into
...\Documents\My Games\NOTA
and
...\Documents\My Games\Spring\nota\
I was tricked! Basically it installed somewhere completly different then the path set in installer.

On start I only got a black window. (win vista)
Then I booted to win 7, and also got a black window. Does it maybe need flash or something?
Only other idea would be that I had recently swapped GFX-cards from ATI to Nvidia and maybe something with drivers...(but all other software including spring worked)
For the first look it seems that new lobby is not supporting other games/projects. It is true, but only in part. We had to choose technical solution which doesn't ruin our time-budget and at least satisfy our needs. To make it compatible with other game projects it would take much time and other resources from us. We hope you understand this decision.
(...)
was needed to avoid crazy combos which happens too often to newbie users e.g. NOTA game on 8x8 map).
I think the way to avoid crazy combos would have been to implent validmaps.lua and validais.lua. (https://springrts.com/wiki/Validmaps.lua https://springrts.com/mantis/view.php?id=2923) At least the first one is already in unitsync...oh well it is just theory ;)
As written for me lobby did not work but from text/pictures it looks nice. So bit sad that it does not work with all games but spring is pretty much dead anway, so understandable to take such shortcuts to get game working.

I put small note about NOTA-only content on https://springrts.com/wiki/GamesDownloads because players might want to know that.
Similiar I also put a note about zero-K-lobby using seperate server.
(For Kernel Panic installer there was already a note about old engine.)
Change the wording if you want to.
And maybe add such short text also on https://springrts.com/wiki/Games to your game description because right now if you click NOTA then it directly goes to downloading the installer and it is not quite clear what the installer contains.
gl.
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gajop
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by gajop » 07 Nov 2015, 11:45

So as a Linux user, I'd like to test the lobby again. How would this work?
Links to obsolete OSx and Linux versions of lobby were removed to satisfy agreement with Spring community. For playing Spring on Linux contact directly authors.
Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
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AF
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by AF » 07 Nov 2015, 19:48

Your package is missing some dll libs, details here


Also, 280mb? I'm guessing your installer contains a spring engine install and all the default maps/content too? It installs to Application Data too, are there problems having a separate content directory under My Games called NOTA rather than the standard Spring folder?

More images of the lobbys UI, perhaps even a video demonstrating starting a single player game or a multiplayer game would be good, most of your media and content revolves around justifying why the program is not violating the GPL, very little is about the interface, features, cool easter eggs, design, how it was built, etc

Even with GPL, I don't believe I've seen an explanation of why it's closed source? Are you worried someone will rip off NOTA and create NOTANOTA? Are you using proprietary non-GPL confidential libraries internally that cannot be open-sourced? Is your code horrifying and you're too embarassed to show lest we think you're the spawn of Cthulu? Do you have a check that crashes the lobby with an error message alluding to expletives if you're name is Peet?

I currently get a black screen as a result, but aside from a total lack of graphics, it appears the lobby is indeed running, albeit in an unusable state. Granted, I'm on OS X running in wine, but the dll issue could be a problem on some Windows set ups, and I'm quite pleased it got as far as it did, so thanks! Also Kudos on the icon too, looks pretty: ( though it looks very familiar in a very ZK kind of way )
Attachments
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Jools
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by Jools » 07 Nov 2015, 20:05

gajop wrote: Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
Good luck with enforcing that :)
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hokomoko
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by hokomoko » 07 Nov 2015, 20:34

Jools wrote:
gajop wrote: Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
Good luck with enforcing that :)
Very simple. A single instance of GPL-infringing versions proliferation may lead to Nota&lobby being permanently removed from the site, server and forums.

I firmly believe pepe and danil are sincere in their will to cooperate, so the above is irrelevant.
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PepeAmpere
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 07 Nov 2015, 23:30

8611z wrote:On http://nota.machys.net/downloads is an old picture with "NOTA 4.0 lobby 'Toxic'"
gajop wrote:So as a Linux user, I'd like to test the lobby again. How would this work?
Links to obsolete OSx and Linux versions of lobby were removed to satisfy agreement with Spring community. For playing Spring on Linux contact directly authors.
Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
  • Obsolete image and not perfect explanation of missing linux installer/lobby adressed in https://trello.com/c/ddybaaLI/ and I hope i fixed.
  • Gajop We ignore your toxic style of communication and I personally wonder you really need to behave like that. Anyway we hope the new statement there explains the situation better.
8611z wrote: Bit ago I had tested version nota-0.7.2.msi, no idea how different this one is...
... path...
I also remember this in 0.7.2. The path selection in that version was just a placeholder :mrgreen: . The installer is still not perfect and this for sure is not intended.
8611z wrote: On start I only got a black window. (win vista)
Then I booted to win 7, and also got a black window. Does it maybe need flash or something?
Only other idea would be that I had recently swapped GFX-cards from ATI to Nvidia and maybe something with drivers...(but all other software including spring worked)
  • Adressed here https://trello.com/c/3y8Lv6u7/
  • Lobby log you find in folder with client would help us the most
  • We do not use flash but we had similar issues once the there were some codecs issues with intro trailer. But i was happening in 0.7.x installers. not in 0.8.x ones. Are you sure it still happens in the latest version?
8611z wrote: I think the way to avoid crazy combos would have been to implent validmaps.lua and validais.lua....
Yes, but our integration issues are not just game-map, game-ai, etc related (what we described was only spring related top of iceberg). We have also notAspace setup related stuff which consist around another 25-30 params beeing in sync (map-mission-players-ai setup combos). So there is a lot of preselection which cannot be handled in mod itself.
8611z wrote:I put small note about NOTA-only content ...
Change the wording if you want to.
No, its ok, no problem :wink:
8611z wrote: And maybe add such short text also on https://springrts.com/wiki/Games to your game
Changed to reference the download page, yes, we have the same opinion.

============================================
AF wrote:Your package is missing some dll libs, details here
Thx for that report
AF wrote:Also, 280mb? I'm guessing your installer contains a spring engine install and all the default maps/content too?
The biggest part (~50%)of that is HD trailer :). All other stuff can be downloaded through special content downloader interface (there are only few default maps for quick battle as part of install pack (~ 60 MB))
AF wrote: It installs to Application Data too, are there problems having a separate content directory under My Games called NOTA rather than the standard Spring folder?
Lobby thing is portable but current installer is kind of strict with paths and with folder structure. So its problem of installer than lobby itself. Installer is primitive and some decisions/solutions are chosen to be able to run everything on XP-Vista-7--8-10 Win range and test lobby fast. We agree current state is not optimal.
AF wrote:More images of the lobbys UI, perhaps even a video demonstrating starting a single player game or a multiplayer game would be good
I agree, but the lobby changes a lot still (0.7.x and 0.8.x is huge audiovisual step) and we have not time for proper PR before "thing" is stable. We plan to share more but I would guess it be would primarly on our comminucation channels first. It is also connected with my next answer.
AF wrote:most of your media and content revolves around justifying why the program is not violating the GPL, very little is about the interface, features, cool easter eggs, design, how it was built, etc
Yes, but:
  • this community leaders consider the legal part of one of lobbys components as the most important (and we respect it)
  • without removing of the blockade of all NOTA stuff in spring communication/news channels our communication is not effective as it can be, so the benefit comming from such effort is very limited
AF wrote:... I don't believe I've seen an explanation of why it's closed source?
This is for longer talk but in short I can say our project is not just about the lobby. Our game content, ai framework, a lot of website stuff, internal tools, etc. etc. is open source and we share those things with other projects. The lobby is core part of integration of all other NOTA related stuff. Those things have small value alone, lobby gives them extra value by integrating them together.
AF wrote:I currently get a black screen as a result...
Will be adressed as part of https://trello.com/c/3y8Lv6u7/ , btw, this icon (among many others we created) is not our work, it is free icon we just use. And btw thx to your screenshot i see it is bad version of it :mrgreen:

============================================
hokomoko wrote:
gajop wrote:... Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
Very simple. A single instance of GPL-infringing versions proliferation may lead to Nota&lobby being permanently removed from the site, server and forums. I firmly believe pepe and danil are sincere in their will to cooperate, so the above is irrelevant.
Exactly, we have no reason to offer fake deal. We are not stupid to invest too much energy to something like this and silently distribute still the old stuff. Anyone here can follow any distribution channel we offer as normal user and figure it out himself/herself. Any trick would leak in few hours with small effort so I hope this is last time I have to answer such questions. Of course I can imagine there happens that some old stuff can be found somewhere forgotten but as I stated above we follow what we promised: full cooperation in removing this.
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gajop
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by gajop » 07 Nov 2015, 23:55

PepeAmpere wrote: Anyway we hope the new statement there explains the situation better.
I don't know how I could've phrased my questions in a nicer way. The concern is still legit: why aren't you openly providing Linux builds?
PepeAmpere wrote:Gajop We ignore your toxic style of communication and I personally wonder you really need to behave like that.
As always, a real pleasure talking to you. People should realize there are limits as to how badly you can talk to me after which I'll completely stop supporting any of your issues.
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PepeAmpere
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by PepeAmpere » 08 Nov 2015, 00:08

gajop wrote:
PepeAmpere wrote:Anyway we hope the new statement there explains the situation better.
I don't know how I could've phrased my questions in a nicer way. The concern is still legit: why aren't you openly providing Linux builds?
We are providing NO linux builds so far. Theres nothing like linux build because we just created windows distribution. :mrgreen: Read pls all there again and more carefully. Only what we offer in private channels is helping users to use our game on a different client => https://trello.com/c/kgl3iNUY/
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Jools
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Re: New notAlobby announcement

Post by Jools » 08 Nov 2015, 03:11

hokomoko wrote:
Jools wrote:
gajop wrote: Note: You still can't give me GPL-infringing versions even if you send it in private.
Good luck with enforcing that :)
Very simple. A single instance of GPL-infringing versions proliferation may lead to Nota&lobby being permanently removed from the site, server and forums.

I firmly believe pepe and danil are sincere in their will to cooperate, so the above is irrelevant.
Other people have it too, I have it for instance on my computer. So if I send this file to somebody, you will punish pepe and danil? Doesn't sound as if you have thought this through.

Not saying I will do this, but I am saying it's out there already on the internet. There is no way of removing it anymore.
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