In the latest versions of spring AAI has behaved oddly, it just spurts out plane factories and planes and the updating doesn't happen anymore, this is in BA I noticed it when I upgraded to nightlies of 0.9x (spring, not AAI) after checking a bit I noticed that it didn't work for either new versions of BA or spring (as in if I used the old version of one but not the other it didn't work), does anyone know what has happened or if there is a fix coming, submarine doesn't seem to be active nowadays but somebody might have taken over or something.
Anyway it is my favourite ai to use as I like water heavy maps and prefer to play cooperatively with people I know.
/Zorbeltuss
Does AAI still work for something?
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?
AI's are mostly unmaintained, seems some change broke it... not sure why.
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Silentwings
- Posts: 3720
- Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
At the moment I think many AIs are unmaintained and waiting for someone to come along and work on them.
Also "it didn't work" is 0% information and not useful as a bug report to anyone - say what went wrong, pastebing your infolog.txt and link to it, ideally include a replay of the problem.
Also "it didn't work" is 0% information and not useful as a bug report to anyone - say what went wrong, pastebing your infolog.txt and link to it, ideally include a replay of the problem.
Last edited by Silentwings on 29 Dec 2013, 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
try the Shard dev AI when 96.0 comes out, i've been configuring it with the intention of playing cooperatively against it on maps with mixed terrain. http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=31035
also i agree with Silentwings, KAIK is a big improvement over AAI for compstomp
also i agree with Silentwings, KAIK is a big improvement over AAI for compstomp
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
I tried to fix AAI a bit, because I like that it says it is learning... 
It can now again build everything... somehow the way how the engine reports back movement information had changed and therefore it classified every ground-build as "unknown" and could only build planes (not only spy planes, though).
But it still is far from being competitive... There are also issues with the internal map representation, it seems. I did not manage to find a sane way to debug them (I tried drawing lines on the map, but they never show up, either the coordinates are totally off map, or I did something wrong). Anyway, the issue is that it tends to close the exits of factories with other building and units get stuck in there.
Still the start of AAI is quite slow.. if you let it play against KAIK or E323AI, they will usually rush AAI to death.
But there seems to be more broken internally. For example I also repaired the ability to build Metal Makers... but it still won't build a lot of them... sometimes it builds one as first building, but then that's it. Although it reaches a point were it totally runs out of metal and also internal calculations are screaming for metal makers... Actually I liked poking around in the code. But I understand far to less about the stuff that is happening there to really make a difference, it seems.
I'd like to see an AI that is capable to play a nice endgame with lvl3 units and stuff... my feeling is, that if you survive the first few attacks, you can easily beat all of the AIs.
It can now again build everything... somehow the way how the engine reports back movement information had changed and therefore it classified every ground-build as "unknown" and could only build planes (not only spy planes, though).
But it still is far from being competitive... There are also issues with the internal map representation, it seems. I did not manage to find a sane way to debug them (I tried drawing lines on the map, but they never show up, either the coordinates are totally off map, or I did something wrong). Anyway, the issue is that it tends to close the exits of factories with other building and units get stuck in there.
Still the start of AAI is quite slow.. if you let it play against KAIK or E323AI, they will usually rush AAI to death.
But there seems to be more broken internally. For example I also repaired the ability to build Metal Makers... but it still won't build a lot of them... sometimes it builds one as first building, but then that's it. Although it reaches a point were it totally runs out of metal and also internal calculations are screaming for metal makers... Actually I liked poking around in the code. But I understand far to less about the stuff that is happening there to really make a difference, it seems.
I'd like to see an AI that is capable to play a nice endgame with lvl3 units and stuff... my feeling is, that if you survive the first few attacks, you can easily beat all of the AIs.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
I really like the idea. Funniest part about its learning I've found is if you attack it with air on a map for a few games, it will spam AA. Er, much to its detriment.Garfonso wrote:I like that it says it is learning...
Exactly my motive for making the BA Shard config! Right now it's still a bit slow getting there, but it will build lvl3 units and attack with them.Garfonso wrote:an AI that is capable to play a nice endgame with lvl3 units and stuff... my feeling is, that if you survive the first few attacks, you can easily beat all of the AIs.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Yes, that's true... AAI builds a table of units of different categories. But there is not category for anti-air. There are some for artillery, assault, ... a lot of stuff. But currently AAI can't differentiate anti-air turrets from ground defence. The same is true for units, it can not see a difference between Anti air bots/vehicles and assault bots/vehicles. :-/zoggop wrote:I really like the idea. Funniest part about its learning I've found is if you attack it with air on a map for a few games, it will spam AA. Er, much to its detriment.Garfonso wrote:I like that it says it is learning...
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
AAI learning is:
If unit A is killed by unit B, increase the efficiency of B and decrease the efficiency of A, build most efficient unit available for current resources
With the addition of separate tables of unit type, plane etc
Adding something similar to Shard would be simple.
KAIK doesnt use this setup, as it pre-calculates efficiency values algorithmically rather than using training AAI style
NTai has mechanisms for AAI style learning, though it doesn't categorise like AAI does, and there are subtle twists
Errors AI and KAIK beat out AAI in it's prime, that won't change by fixing up AAI. Errors AI has its pathfinder rushing, which few other AIs can handle effectively, KAIK has a similar pathfinding mechanism but it's inferior to Errors AI and is intended mainly for other purposes ( such as where to send attack groups ).
I've asked Error in the past if I can put his pathfinder in Shard and he's agreed, but I've not gotten around to it.
If unit A is killed by unit B, increase the efficiency of B and decrease the efficiency of A, build most efficient unit available for current resources
With the addition of separate tables of unit type, plane etc
Adding something similar to Shard would be simple.
KAIK doesnt use this setup, as it pre-calculates efficiency values algorithmically rather than using training AAI style
NTai has mechanisms for AAI style learning, though it doesn't categorise like AAI does, and there are subtle twists
Errors AI and KAIK beat out AAI in it's prime, that won't change by fixing up AAI. Errors AI has its pathfinder rushing, which few other AIs can handle effectively, KAIK has a similar pathfinding mechanism but it's inferior to Errors AI and is intended mainly for other purposes ( such as where to send attack groups ).
I've asked Error in the past if I can put his pathfinder in Shard and he's agreed, but I've not gotten around to it.
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Zorbeltuss
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 22:24
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Oh didn't expect this thread to generate answers so long after it had been made.
The infolog is lost to the flow of time, it might have been possible putting it up when the request for one came, but as there is no way of telling (that I've found) in the forums what you need to post I think there is no need to be rude about it.
About changing to another better ai, that can handle rushes and such, well I won't I don't strive to be a better player, I strive to have fun, being able to play at my extremly sedate pace while having difficulty because of the chosen units of the enemy is fun, not getting anywhere because I'm rushed before I have time to react is not.
Edit: Garfonso is your AAI bundled or findable by any means, I can't test if it is already because I'm having problems with the lobby not showing games.
/Zorbeltuss
The infolog is lost to the flow of time, it might have been possible putting it up when the request for one came, but as there is no way of telling (that I've found) in the forums what you need to post I think there is no need to be rude about it.
About changing to another better ai, that can handle rushes and such, well I won't I don't strive to be a better player, I strive to have fun, being able to play at my extremly sedate pace while having difficulty because of the chosen units of the enemy is fun, not getting anywhere because I'm rushed before I have time to react is not.
Edit: Garfonso is your AAI bundled or findable by any means, I can't test if it is already because I'm having problems with the lobby not showing games.
/Zorbeltuss
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
On AAI wiki page http://springrts.com/wiki/AI:AAI says it supports XTA and BA, so tested.
Map was "Alien Desert", flat landmap with normal metal layout.
XTA: Does nothing. Commander just sits there (infolog is from that)
BA: See replay.
It starts with airlab and some pretty random looking placement of stuff. After some minutes I send 5 units towards it and they kill everything because it has no units except some fighters. There are 2 more airlabs.
The commander runs towards my units and looks at them.
The commander runs away.
The commander runs back to my units and builds a solar in front of them...
So it kind of does work, but not sure if that is interessting to play vs?
No idea if it had gotten stronger with more games or longer games. But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
Map was "Alien Desert", flat landmap with normal metal layout.
XTA: Does nothing. Commander just sits there (infolog is from that)
BA: See replay.
It starts with airlab and some pretty random looking placement of stuff. After some minutes I send 5 units towards it and they kill everything because it has no units except some fighters. There are 2 more airlabs.
The commander runs towards my units and looks at them.
The commander runs away.
The commander runs back to my units and builds a solar in front of them...
So it kind of does work, but not sure if that is interessting to play vs?
No idea if it had gotten stronger with more games or longer games. But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
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- 20140112_135457_AlienDesert_96.sdf
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?
if i remember right this is fixed in the current dev version of spring.knorke wrote: But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Will airstarts be boosted in next spring?abma wrote:if i remember right this is fixed in the current dev version of spring.knorke wrote: But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Having AAI build air and then repeatedly massacre the air units with what you'd prefer it to build should fix that. That a blank AAI with no information on what is good or bad ot build built something that's bad is not unusual
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Afaik games could ship "initial" configs for AAI?
If so, running 100 games on springgrid vs the game's best AI would probably teach it a bit.
If so, running 100 games on springgrid vs the game's best AI would probably teach it a bit.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Is Springgrid still up and running?
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Unsure about infra, but the code is on github.
Re: Does AAI still work for something?
Nope, this really was broken in AAI (and BA). Something in the engine (or game?) changed, that AAI used to classify units as AIR, Ground, Hovercraft, Ship... so it ended up with a bunch of AIR Units (they still worked) and a lot of "unknown" Units it won't build (and also did not find builders for).AF wrote:Having AAI build air and then repeatedly massacre the air units with what you'd prefer it to build should fix that. That a blank AAI with no information on what is good or bad ot build built something that's bad is not unusual
I fixed that, so if you build AAI from the dev branch, it will build other stuff, too... it can now again build nearly every unit in BA.
But performance still is.. not so good in my experience. One issue that remains is placing of factories. It seems something changed there, too... AAI often obstructs the exit of its factories, although in the code you can see that it tries to prevent that. I did not manage to fix that, though.