Thank you

[smoth]

There should be a decision first if this place is meant to be a serious game development forum or a trolls playground you visit to read some flames when you are bored. Those aims obviously clash with each other (e.g. people complain when trolls get banned because there is no more "fun").

I still don't see why we cannot have both.

Here is what I proposed a while back in a nutshell:

Have general status:
------------------------------------------------------
trusted

- engine devs, lua devs etc. . anyone who needs to actively develop here.
- can post in all forums

^ when behaves ^
v when misbehaves v

General user
- people who are just here to chat.
- think of it as a neutral status
- can post in all forums

^ when behaves ^
v when misbehaves v

general user DEMOTED
- can only post in general forums

v when misbehaves v

BYE


I thin the forum should be split with the demoted users only able to post in the general forums which would be at the bottom. they can still read the development forums but if their behavior is too wild, they are relegated

the forums would be split into development sections and general community sections.
------------------------------------------------
Development areas
_STRICTER RULES FOR POSTING
- content dev
- maps models lua etc
- engine dev

community areas
- general discussion
- game subforums(game/mod devs responsible for their section including rules and behaviors)
- offtopic gets less restrictive rules
--------------------------------------------------
that way people can be a community but not readily troll it up in the development areas

[AF]

I agree with smoth, although I think the demotion part at the bottom end may need debating ( but this is no obstacle to implementation ).

Had there not been rampant hypocrisy, censorship, double standards and other qualities of this boards moderation team...

To eliminate said problems one would have to admit they exist first. Might consider giving a shit about Spring again.

As you ban dodge..

This is why I advocated transparency. If moderation was a completely open process where one could observe every facet in a read only manner, then this would be blatantly obvious.

Any user could take a statement like that and show Degenerated4 up by linking to the moderation record.

It would place pressure on community members to act nicely as people can see their indiscretions, and it would force moderators to act fairly and transparently because all their actions would be in public for all to see.

The beauty of a completely transparent system is it provides the 'why' component. It's not enough to say XYZ misbehaved, you have to say why the behaviour was unnacceptable. It's not hard and it needs doing only once when it first happens.

As for current moderation problems

Current moderation faffery stems from inconsistencies. Beherith saying saying "recent advances" in the BAR thread is spamming then backtracking and admitting its actually because he doesnt care for the meme ( in which case no warning and a simple request in a PM would've served far better ), or for example a recent hoohaa with dasbruce over the arrangement of threads ( it's okay for there to be a favourite song lyrics thread about non game music in the sound forum, but a what are you listening to now is non game music and needs to go in offtopic.

Now I can imagine in these cases dasbruce didn't want to spend his afternoon moving topics from sound to offtopic, devastating that forum in the process, or combing off topic doing the opposite, and I've come across other instances of similar things happening.

In these cases it's the same issue we had with licenses. Acknowledgement. It's okay to say there's an issue but you don't have the time right now and make it known so someone else has it. I and other people have respect for moderators, and we all know it's hard and there aren't enough hours in the day going spare to do the job as well as we'd like.

But there are a lot of people who don't have trust and respect for the moderation here, and that has to be earned. Inconsistencies, backtracking, lies and deferences like this might seem harmless, but it sets a precedent that the moderators don't care and neither should you. Many people think this doesn't matter but quite clearly it has, look at Trademark. If a moderators going to be an arse about something why should you make their life easy, why should they deserve your respect.

I'd like to request that everything from the beginning of the discussion with Trademarks ban be split into a separate thread named "The current state of moderation".

[Satirik]

some retards killed this forum and the community, now spring has just random players playing random ... nope ... playing dsd 12v12 10 times a day and when theyr'e tired of seeing this fuckin map they leave ...

solution : only some part of the forum should be trollless, and a lot of autohosts should be banned (if you want to play a 12v12 dsd, host it the old way)

[knorke]

there is the misconception running rife that any separation of the forums will be separation of the community.

Spring/its games/community is not large enough to seperate.
If every game had its own site/forum they would be empty like this:
http://www.desura.com/games/evolution-rts/forum
Same would happen with a dedicated "development forum" and happend to Jazcash's(?) playerforum or smoth's forum. Or the various other sites I dont remember atm, ie there is also a german forum which is imo dead.
Having dead and empty forums does not make Spring look good.

In case a player has problems with the engine/lobby (ie crashing, login,...) he has to come to "Help & Bugs"/mantis anyway so an engine dev can look at the problem.
Devs will likely not read/answer all those small forums or even crawl through the comments of some moddb page. Funnily same games devs want to keep their players away forum springrts.com even though they are unable to provide good answers on some problems.
(zero-k forum is maybe an exception because multiple lobby/engine(?) devs are involved with it)

---

Some people seem to think that all the trolling/flaming is done by (BADSD) players and the poor, helpless game/map makers are oh so hurt by this. That is wrong.
Content devs are more than capable of creating drama themself.
-make many threads on the same topic, each one with larger text? check.
-post pornlinks "so thread gets deleted?" check.
-misunderstand others on purpose? check.
-bait on ALL the posts made by personal arch-enemy? check.
-get an answer on a question but instead of "thanks" the reply is something smart-ass? check.
-...

---

Moderation:
Who are we fooling, content creators do not get banned anyway, otherwise there would be nobody left. There are some threads/posting that would clearly have gotten "normal users" get banned.
Everything else is kind of secondary...

Satirik:
please hold back with the dsd until the thread is completly fucked. Atm there is still some hope left!
In the meantime: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26762

[Degenerated4]

Had there not been rampant hypocrisy, censorship, double standards and other qualities of this boards moderation team...

To eliminate said problems one would have to admit they exist first. Might consider giving a shit about Spring again.

As you ban dodge..

My main account was not banned. I chose this way of posting because of raging retards like yourself. And I can properly express how I perceive raging retards, without worrying about being persecuted by the corrupt moderation openly admitting they protect developing raging retards.

User has been warned for this post.

[smoth]

Hmm, you seem in a state of anger sir, fellow community members, perhaps I misunderstand but I do believe this fellow is roused most unseemly. Brother are you in a state of anger because you seem mad bro..

:D

Also don't lie this is one of several of you accounts. This isn't the first or last. I find it particularly funny when you use your other accounts to sock puppet. Which is pretty transparent.

[PicassoCT]

trollz in my spring?


Ive never seen one. Igore, Igore, get your n on, Ignore, we gonna search for these mysterious creatures.

[smoth]

laugh with me jocco..EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE eeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[AF]

Kaiser is correct.

But not quite...

See the developers and the community at large are already split.

• Engine developers no longer participate in the community as a rule, they dip in and out with some developers bucking the trend. Engine developers used to lead the community, we had a project lead, now most of the people here would be lost for words trying to remember who that was. They have their channels, their meetings, and their own structures. And it works for them. They have the means of insulating themselves from the community and cherrypicking those they need when the time comes, dipping in and out when they have to to explain things.
  
  Their time spent on these forums is a downward spiralling chart.
• Lobby Developers have for the most part left or distanced themselves. Other than Satirik who pops in to fire potshots at DSD ( go go satirik ), those remaining developers are either engine devs ( e.g. Hoijui and his TASServer work ), or find the community here in contempt and broken. They're involvement in the lobby environment I have limited knowledge of lately however so I shan't mention this further.
• New Content developers are tackling with a lack of documentation and an unwelcoming atmosphere. I was told it's hard to get help with problems because people don't explain, they just fix and hand you a wall of code to copy paste.
• AI Developers Me, and maybe 2 other people? 3 maybe 4 wrote lua gadget AIs, the rest absorbed by content devs using modified CRAIG or CAI. It's a pitiful state, they're not even using the AI forum, shall we rename it AFs personal domain? Because it seems I'm the only one starting threads these days
• The Old Guard
  Of those of us that remain, there are those who are liking the word contempt a lot right now. The lack of real progress, the usual cliches, the way things haven't really changed, it was the community that changed not the things that were supposed to fix it. A lot of teh louder of us have matured and some of us are bitter, we're set in our own ways. Some know we contributed and we're trying ( though not always succeeding ), some are bitter.

As for the players and the lobby, we have a ticking time bomb. Game developers aren't trying to start their own communities for no reason or for pride or arrogance:



I warned about this and offered suggestions with the help of others who agreed this was an issue. It's gotten worse, and it's contributing to not solving the problem of 10vs10 DSD.

All of this is salvagable, it's not too late, but inaction is a ticking time bomb. We already have solutions and resolutions to a lot fo the problems, and we've already discussed them.

I think it's time the powers that be made their stance clear and put these discussions to rest.

[smoth]

Lol you put yourself above the old guard.

Anyway, I have been trying to develop a gundam community irl obligations have slowed that though. So don't say I have not tried. So and so didn't try enough is one of those old cliches you mentioned af.

[Degenerated4]

disgrace.JPG

The very reason this engine even exists and continues to exist is continuously labeled as bad and unwanted.

Bunch of pompous morons trying to tell players what the players themselves are supposed to like. Instead you should be trying to embrace this dying flame of hope and kindle it.

[AF]

I've been here since the beginning, I count old guard as anyone who's been active since 2005 and before.

Contributions in the OTA community I don't count as that's not this community. You could argue overlap but then we could say we're a part of the starcraft community which isnt the case. If we were counting OTA I'd push my own date back from late 2004 to early 1999.

[AF]

disgrace.JPG

The very reason this engine even exists and continues to exist is continuously labeled as bad and unwanted.

Bunch of pompous morons trying to tell players what the players themselves are supposed to like. Instead you should be trying to embrace this dying flame of hope and kindle it.

Players will play what they want to play, why else have I been using Supreme commander to get my RTS fix the last 2 years. There I said it. I played Supcom, are you happy now? =p

Autohosts can be a good thing. Right now they are having a detrimental effect. No more than 4 or 5 are in use at any one time, yet we have 20-30, sitting empty. When they're not needed they should packup and sit idle. It's not hard. If you have 10 autohosts, only have the first open a battle. When people join, open the second. When a battle is emptied, close. In a constellation of autohosting bots there should never be more than one sitting in a battle with 0 players. It's wasteful and it has detrimental effects on the lobby.

[smoth]

What flame is that yan? Most of the ba players want dsd6v6 and we cannot persuade them to step out into 1v1 or even 2v2 anymore.

[Tim-the-maniac]

Ah this is sad..
Trademark gets banned for a nothing post while Smoth continues to spout garbage This place is backwards. Its a shame people care about these forums enough to leave. TM contributed some fun stuff that people actually used -- who would care if we lost the 2 biggest drama makers here. We lose 2 games no-one plays, and a few maps that no-one plays and also we lose a whole heap of retarded posts too. (can you guess who they are yet ?)

[Degenerated4]

I am not YAN you ignorant prejudiced fool.

People hate feeling responsible for their failures, ergo team games prevail.
Filters exist for a reason. Regulating peoples generosity is irrational.

User has been warned for this post.

[Petah]

Geeze, stop ruining this shit. All of you!

Edit:

On second thought, why not just take down this forum, and the lobby host. Then let every one either disappear, or regroup in a post Noahs Arc type fashion.

[SirArtturi]

Ah this is sad..
Trademark gets banned for a nothing post while Smoth continues to spout garbage This place is backwards. Its a shame people care about these forums enough to leave. TM contributed some fun stuff that people actually used -- who would care if we lost the 2 biggest drama makers here. We lose 2 games no-one plays, and a few maps that no-one plays and also we lose a whole heap of retarded posts too. (can you guess who they are yet ?)

To whom 2 are you referring? Shame on you. We don't want to lose anyone.

[AF]

We did that already. In 2005 the SY's nuked every post except their admin forum, and blamed it on mysterious hackers.

[Petah]

We did that already. In 2005 the SY's nuked every post except their admin forum, and blamed it on mysterious hackers.

Don't nuke every post, disable the forum, so people have to go elsewhere and regroup.