Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

[smoth]

1. Take down all the banners except for one, because we're highlighting a Game of the Week or highlighting Spring's features to potential game developers.

The banners are not about the games as much as the spring engine having a variety of projects.

2. Write new text in the Announcement area to talk about stuff that's going on.

Ok, so the community news gets a bigger box? This is an engine site not a project site like say the planetannihiliation site used to be.

3. Change out the videos and screenshots, if there's a need.

Why? I can ask a site admin to do that. There is no reason you should be messing with the shots page though as having old and new shots gives a bit of a cool engine history. Some people like to see that.

*edits*
I don't see why you don't just update your own site and your moddb page both of which have been left to rot. Along with the project that does not work(in before only your pc, I have 3 pcs and it failed on all)

[Argh]

The banners are not about the games as much as the spring engine having a variety of projects.

That area can do a lot of things. It's OK to re-purpose it for specific projects.

Ok, so the community news gets a bigger box? This is an engine site not a project site like say the planetannihiliation site used to be.

Well, that slant would change a bit.

Games would get more focus, since that's what most people visiting the website are interested in. Engine-focused articles and promotional campaigns (stuff like, "we're having a contest to build a Spring game in a week, come learn about the engine") would also be a good focus.

The overall idea, though, is to turn the currently lifeless space into something that is actively useful and creates interest.

Why? I can ask a site admin to do that. There is no reason you should be messing with the shots page though as having old and new shots gives a bit of a cool engine history. Some people like to see that.

Well, for example, maybe this week we're highlighting S'44.

So, in terms of basic process, I will have delivered a press release (written by the S'44 team, of course) and we're encouraging the press to come look at the game.

At the same time, we're wanting a broad push for the game to help it find an audience, and we're wanting to take the opportunity to reach out to potential game developers (by talking about the wonderful stuff they've implemented) and potential engine people (by making them excited about the broad functionality of the engine).

So on the front page, we have a feature about the game, including screenshots from it, a featured video, and banners highlighting it.

That says, to anybody checking out Spring, that you can expect solid support and professional interest, and it's a big honey-pot for people on the development end.

Same story can be applied to the engine- maybe this week we're talking about the research projects people have used Spring for (that would be a drop-kick project, I'm sure the professors involved in the AI area in particular would be happy to get free press), the need for developers in selected areas, or whatever people want to talk about and are willing to help put together materials for.

In short, I want to make it a living thing that's useful for everybody and directly supports the rest of what would need to be done.

This creates a useful feedback loop, where interested people join the community and are checking out things more often, and where the press starts expecting us to talk to them (whether they choose to run with it is another thing entirely).

Oh, and as for your edit, you haven't downloaded that profile build yet. Please let me know if it runs

[KDR_11k]

Argh, what were your results for advertising PURE? That was a commercial project and probably very dear to you. The reports I read was that nobody played it and the game was broken badly.

This is my plan right now. Copying the EXPORT table eats some CPU, it could become a problem if it contains too much data.

Code: Select all

	/**
	 * @brief multiThreadLua
	 *
	 * LuaHandle threading mode for Spring MT:
	 * -1: Single Lua state (fully backwards compatible but slow)
	 * 0: Dual Lua states, except for LuaUI (communication via _G.EXPORT --> SYNCED.EXPORT)
	 * 1: Dual Lua states throughout (best performance, communication only via SendToUnsynced)
	 */

Considering the only purpose of _G in a properly coded gadget is communicating to unsynced I think you can transfer the whole _G table to SYNCED to save us rewriting. _G is not used for synced-synced communication, that's what GG is for.

[SpliFF]

Considering the only purpose of _G in a properly coded gadget is communicating to unsynced I think you can transfer the whole _G table to SYNCED to save us rewriting. _G is not used for synced-synced communication, that's what GG is for.

Transfering _G verbatim is fraught with problems. You have to deal with infinite recursion and the fact _G contains functions (what would happen if _G.myfunc() is called). Also _G is usually an awful mess because it contains everything from the given state. The process is slow because you have to copy everything by value.

SYNCED should contain only things that are really important (used often or required for legacy widgets) and things specifically put there by a gadget.

[Argh]

Argh, what were your results for advertising PURE?

Short answer was that getting lots of downloads of the free stuff was never a major issue. It wasn't "advertised", at least in the sense of me buying ads or something- I couldn't afford that. I just used well-documented viral marketing techniques, used the media outlets correctly, etc.

Heck, that silly Warband mod I built while taking a break has seen 32K in 2 months. And all I had to do was make a horrible video and provide documentation and support and do basic community marketing stuff. I didn't even have to reach beyond the Warband player base.

We could very easily get the most polished stuff for this engine to the 50K threshold, I think, with some caveats about SP needing to be nailed down at a basic level first.

CA could probably do triple that, if they pushed and prioritized SP support for a month and did what they'd need to do to be marketable... and that would give them a big push before PlanetWars.

Spring has plenty of visitors. That isn't a problem. And it wouldn't take a lot to transform the visitors into audience figures for the games, just basic stuff and maybe some mentions from gamer media.

The idea that this situation can't be changed is incorrect. It just needs somebody competent in charge who can actually make decisions and do what's necessary. That doesn't mean appointing me Media Tyrant; but it does mean that I'd have to have to have the things I need to actually do the job, without getting second-guessed to death.

The alternative is what we've got now- moribund audience ratings, poor retention, and a generally defeatist attitude. What do you have to lose, really?

[hoijui]

Argh, i can not imagine that you will get instant direct access to change the website. Just as little as someone with an idea for a change in the engine will get instant git commit access.
It works like this:
discuss what you want to do with the guys that have access. if they agree at large, do your changes/a prototype. then that can be discussed on/tweaked. and then set live. this happens for a few changes. when eventually the guys with access will trust you, you may get direct access, or the flow is so well organized already, that you do not even need it, cause you just have to ask that guy which will set it live in a few minutes.

[zwzsg]

new release (0.82.6) will come these days

If you release a new spring, please remember to swap the NullAI with one that doesn't crash on startup.

[AF]

Again argh demonstrates that he doesnt actually read the posts he responds to.

I have already explained why I will not sit down and do it myself, enfact I have already attempted to do so, you were there even.

As a web developer, I can safely guarantee that there is no need whatsoever for Argh to need or have access to this site to do what he plans, and I would further point out that what he wants to do is primarily aimed at yet again focusing on the P.U.R.E banner in the rectangle and maximising it. That he even assumes a featured game is a desirable or good thing for the engine with no debate is questionable.

@Neddie
Then why are you discussing the advertising affairs of individual projects in this thread? Its obviously offtopic and belongs in the projects relevant subforum or lobby channel

[Argh]

Hoijui, I can't accept a responsibility I don't have the ability to turn into executive action. You can't do this sort of thing with filters and committees.

First off, it's too slow- actions in this area require a fast response. People who do the actual work need to be able to act quickly and effectively.

Secondly, good marketing isn't necessarily safe, committee-approved material. I know that some people think it's bullshit or voodoo, but it's not either. It's art that convinces, entertains and informs. But you can't do it right if you're always being safe; safe is boring and boring doesn't interest people.

Thirdly, it's un-necessary; if there are serious objections, the changes can be reverted easily, no matter how I've implemented them, and you can just fire me if I'm not effective or I offend people. So you've added a useless layer of bureaucracy.

Fourthly, under your proposal, I would have to submit work to people who don't understand the subject.

Anyhow, that's why I can't accept anything less than what I've outlined.

@AF: I don't need access to the site per se, just the ability to change the content. I thought I made that clear.

[smoth]

Fourthly, under your proposal, I would have to submit work to people who don't understand the subject.

You understand it no more than Hoi. You have some experience dealing with 1 business type person. Most of your pr efforts are hype based, which is a misleading method of selling something resulting in jilted users who have an experience not like the one you depict. I don't want to see this site become an advert site for spring projects. It is the ENGINE homepage. If you want to see a promotional effort go talk to jazcash who was doing something pretty interesting.

I don't think there is any point to a weekly spotlight because most of the projects are *A. It would be 2 months of ta with occasional repeat coverage of s44 or gundam or evo. Seriously, there are a lot of *A projects. Weekly feature would be if we had hundreds of actually different projects but we don't even have enough real projects to last the 52 week cycle of a year.

Furthermore, I don't want you taking your approach to advertising MY project as I have taken great pains to be honest and transparent with what few fans my project has. I feel that this method is slower but will build a more honest and close community.

So your methodologies are in direct conflict with how I want my project advertised. I am sure others would feel the same but I am only talking from my perspective.

Lets also take your history into account. You have 1 project that you are putting off fixing and you are actively collecting revenue(No matter how little) from it. You have in the past made a few helpful posts and when things didn't go your way, you pulled all of them. You have a history of pretending to know areas which require actual experience and arguing to the hair that you know it even when presented with data to the contrary. You apeal to authority and attempt to be ambiguous about these great plans rather than have them actually open to scrutiny. When Scrutinized you tend to dodge any meaningful critique or delete/ignore any opinion you feel is too strong.

I do not feel you are capable of working with others because you are too caught up in yourself and your need for both attention and accolade. You do not take the higher road of admitting when you are wrong, instead you try and twist things or dodge around until people tire of trying to explain things to you.

Neddiedrow is FAR more qualified than you are in this area. I am not trying to belittle you but you have no actual education in many areas where you pretend expert level knowledge. I believe in the self educated man, I really do but you are not this Renaissance man argh.

Your mount and blade project is openly mocked on youtube, I read the comments man. It isn't some cascade of love. Others have told me it is mostly a compilation of other peoples work that you have thrown together. I don't see it as relevant. You say you have 32k dls, whoopty do, gundam had >100k dls on various sites when I checked back in 06. You know what? I saw 0 players of gundam annihilation. You are making a mod for a very very popular game, you act as though it being downloaded is all you, it isn't.

*edit* forgot my k after 100

[lurker]

Zerver, what's the benefit of a single lua state version at all? I understand a version where you use _G instead of SYNCED, but why not split the state even then?



How many gadgets use _G for anything other than data sharing and exporting? Could we get away with, in backwards compatibility mode, making _G as seen by gadgets actually EXPORT with __index=_G? ...though we really need games to stop including custom gadget handlers when they don't need them.

[zwzsg]

How many gadgets use _G for anything other than data sharing and exporting?

I haven't seen any.

[Argh]

Gosh, Smoth, that was mean and uncalled-for.

Why haven't we banned you, exactly?

[FLOZi]

Zerver, what's the benefit of a single lua state version at all? I understand a version where you use _G instead of SYNCED, but why not split the state even then?



How many gadgets use _G for anything other than data sharing and exporting? Could we get away with, in backwards compatibility mode, making _G as seen by gadgets actually EXPORT with __index=_G? ...though we really need games to stop including custom gadget handlers when they don't need them.

What games other than CA have a custom gadget handler?

(And CA gadgethandler has certain fixes from jK in it that are not yet in base)

[Argh]

I think they're the only ones, unless somebody else is using it to support LUPS- IIRC, that was something I had to fix when I made it portable.

[zwzsg]

Kernel Panic (and any other mod I touch) patch up the handler, redefining getfenv(0).gadgetHandler's GameFrame, Update, RemoveGadget.

Gosh, Smoth, that was mean and uncalled-for.

Why haven't we banned you, exactly?

Say, if we let you handle this site, do your plans to promote Spring in a positive light include banning truth?

[smoth]

you know I reported that post for backseat moderation but honestly I want it to stay. I feel bad that I neglected to type that in my report.

Fact of the matter is that his response illustrates exactly what I was talking about.

[Argh]

If it makes you happy, you've finally managed to make me grumpy again for the first time in a year.

Look. What you said was both hurtful and largely untrue, or is an exaggeration, and it wasn't even on point.

Nowhere in my statements have I said even a whisper about how I'd handle your project, for example. Your statements are just fabrications made to fit what you want to believe and to present a largely farcical situation. Anybody here familiar with your long-running feud with me would know that I'd be totally crazy to be involved with anything resembling PR for you!

I've gone to great lengths to be polite, answer questions, and provide assurances, while explaining why I'd need some very minimal tools to be able to do the job well.

If you'd like Neddie to do the job, fine. I honestly don't think that's going to work out, like it didn't work previously, but who knows, maybe he's learned some things. I'm willing to give him a month and see if he can get things done.

If that was it, I'd probably just let it go.

But you've made it personal again, and you're being deliberately hurtful, and you can't point to anything I've said here or during the last month as provocation.

This is why I don't think you should be here, Steve. You turn every disagreement into a personal vendetta, then you stretch it out for years. I am the only person you've targeted in this way who's managed to deal with it and stay. The only people who think you're "nice" have never had to deal with your crazy behavior.

[zerver]

Zerver, what's the benefit of a single lua state version at all?

No benefit other than full backwards compatibility, and less rotten eggs thrown in my direction.

[smoth]

What games other than CA have a custom gadget handler?

Looking in my mods dir

Cursed
Evo

That is all I can find for now, I'd look more but yeah..