Curious

[Gota]

The problem with Religulous people is that at some point when their pastor or priest or rabbi or cleric tell them that shit needs to go down on someone cause that's the lord's will,and him being more versed in the scriptures he will be very persuasive neutralizing any opposition from his "flock",they will have no choice but to listen or abandon their belief.

The only reason Jaz you are so "light" Religulous is because of secular establishments and social reforms that put a leash on religion.
When you say you don't have the inner strength to be a true christian what you actually mean without knowing is that you are too influenced by normal society and people to shackle yourself yo some crazy book that tells you to kill and maim people for the stupidest reasons.
What gives a christian the right to listen to the more peaceful parts of the bible but refuse the less peaceful ones? nothing but SECULAR law.
Those are your "high Religulous morals".

[Forboding Angel]

For instance, god is supposed to listen to prayers. With proper statistical studies, it's been proven prayers don't work.

i dont get your opposition to evolution and the big bang? surely the big bang would play nicely into the creation theory?

Yes, it would, but it doesn't work like that. Right wing christian nuts are using denial of big bang and evolution as a trojan horse to reintroduce religious indoctrination into the compulsory education of innocent american children.

Hahaha, also, inb4winddoesn'texist

You are mistaken Z. The bug bang was originally conspired as a way to take a God out of the equation, however, in a way, a big bang of sorts while not making much scientific sense, would be a way of describing creation.

Denial of a theory? Well, duh. The big bang is only a theory. I assume you understand the difference between scientific theories and scientific laws... For example the laws of gravity, which can be readily proven.

Also kids, you should understand by now that just because you aren't particularly religious doesn't mean that you don't agree with some aspects of certain religion.

With christianity it simply comes down to the ten commandments. Lets go through catagorically (shitspelling?).

• 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

• 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Well these two are pretty self explanatory. Don't worship false gods and don't put the importance of anything worldly before me (in other words, don't get so wrapped up in shit that you lose sight).

• 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

Pretty simple, don't curse God's name.

• 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Widely recognized as a weekly day of rest. Or a restful day. In other words, this is your "Happy day", enjoy it as much as possible.

• 'Honor your father and your mother.'

Listen to your parents, and don't dishonor them.

• 'You shall not murder.'

Don't commit murder. In other words, stabbing someone because they don't agree with you is probably a pretty non-cool idea.

• 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Don't cheat on your wife.

• 'You shall not steal.'

Don't be stealin' shit yo!

• 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Don't lie, and by extension, don't cheat.

• 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Don't look at something your buddy has and wish that you had it. In today's terms, this isn't so much of a huge deal, because what your buddy has, you can easily go out and buy yourself. This commandment was written at a time which things were not so easily attained. This also hedges on "Do not steal". In other words, don't sit there and wish that you had something your buddy has, and don't swipe it (In other words, coveting something generally leads to stealing, and this commandment is stating that both are wrong. In particular, this commandment is covering the premeditation of theft).

So lets list these again in much more simple form:
Don't worship other gods, and don't curse God.
Take a day off.
Take care off and don't ignore your parents.
Don't commit murder.
Be faithful to your wife.
Don't be a thieving asshole (Don't steal your buddies shit).
Don't lie or cheat.
Don't think about stealing your buddies shit.

^^ Can any of you possibly disagree that this is a good set of moral values? Even discounting the first line (Don't worship other gods, and don't curse God.). Can you readily say that the other 7 are a bad set of moral values?

Shit's pretty simple really. What it's saying is to be HONEST I know that for some reason being honest is a hardship for a lot of people in modern society, but this list of 8 rules is the basis of christianity and I submit that to have a meaningful relationship with God simply following the above rules is enough.

Do you really thing that the christian god gives a flying shit whether you believe in the big bang or not? Please.

If you follow the above 8 rules I listed and ask God for forgiveness for your sins and ask for forgiveness when you fuck up, you can call yourself a christian. This shit really isn't complicated, as much as religion desperately wants to be complicated, this is the core of the christian belief and in and of itself is enough.

As previously stated, I am not particularly religious, but I come from a christian family, and my father and brothers are excellent role models and are very good people. While my family is concerned about my "status" with God, they love and support me, and I them. I have never known anyone in my family to be a hypocrite, and they have my utmost respect.

******************************

As many of you probably don't know (due to lack of exposure), there are myriads of different protestant christian denominations, and imo, a lot of them qualify to me as "Doin it rong". Many people get so wrapped up in religion that they lose sight of everything else. Inversely, atheists are so wrapped up in vehemently opposing the idea of a God even existing that they often lose sight of everything else as well. My question would be "Why is it so important to scream at the top of your lungs that there is no God and violently oppose anything to the contrary?".

Imo hardcore atheists are every bit as bad as religious nutjobs.

[zwzsg]

You clearly have no basic understanding of physics, please refrain from using physics in defence of your delusions

You clearly have absolutely no basic knowledge of biology, so please refrain from using any biology in defence of your delusions

Nah, that'd be too easy. Sure, none, well, few, as Spring players are mostly intelligent scientifically educated people, of us can discuss the finer details of astrophysic and biology. That shouldn't prevent us from understanding the bases of the scientific method.

Both are the random mutations in the DNA of cells that allow the carrier better chances of survival, and therefore better chances to pass on the mutation.

DNA and cells are just implementation details. Leave them out for the moment. What Jazcash and true christian reject is that evolution shaped life.

I have very little knowledge of biology.

That's okay. I was just enquiring about your belief about cross-breeding.

If you believe in "evolution" you believe in natural evolution, not forced evolution.

Do you believe in forced evolution? Basically, I want to know if people like you accept forced evolution but not natural one, or reject both. Yes, I ask that because I find it harder to reject forced evolution than natural evolution, and because I find hard to reject natural evolution when you see forced evolution happens before your eyes. But for now, I just want to know what's creationnist stance on selective breeding.

If you think humans came about because the dinosaurs forced monkeys to fuck chickens then you're very much mistaken for the actual theory of evolution.

That's not what Darwin said! o_O It's quite an original theory you got there, I can't help but wonder where you got if from. Well, I guess the "fuck" comes from anger, the "monkeys" is because creationnist like to caricature evolution theory into "man comes from monkey", capitalising on the fact that humans, especially religious ones, don't like being dethrowned from their status of a "special" race, favored by god, and set apart from the animal reign. Dinosaurs are the classical figure of the evolution vs creation debate. Chickens is a standard common animal, plus with the nice classical philosophical question attached, which came first, chicken or egg, and with a the usual evolutionnist answer: Egg! The first chicken hatched from a dinosaur egg! But anyway, I whole heartly agree with you: If you think humans came about because the dinosaurs forced monkeys to fuck chickens then you're very much mistaken for the actual theory of evolution.

[Raghna]

God might exist, he might not.
We don't know.
Anyone saying, believing otherwise is either indoctrinated or a fool.

That's what I believe in.

[Teutooni]

^^ Can any of you possibly disagree that this is a good set of moral values? Even discounting the first line (Don't worship other gods, and don't curse God.). Can you readily say that the other 7 are a bad set of moral values?

Shit's pretty simple really. What it's saying is to be HONEST I know that for some reason being honest is a hardship for a lot of people in modern society, but this list of 8 rules is the basis of christianity and I submit that to have a meaningful relationship with God simply following the above rules is enough.

You do realize the mentioned values are the basis of all societies and religions (well with slight variation anyway)? Similiar values formed thousands of years before christianity all over the world separately. They come from common sense logic needed for a society to function. Later they were formalized as laws (supposedly divine or purely mundane), once high culture developed.

So no, no one is disputing such teachings. Point is islam, hinduism, buddhism and so on all teach similiar values, which makes the endless animosity between islam and christianity utterly moronic. Sensible persons recognize these similarities and only religious nutjobs care if they use bible's or quran's version of the same thing. Both bible and quran have outdated moronic values too like stoning infidels, women's inequality etc. so who needs this bullshit anymore - take the good values and teach them. It's called ethics I believe. Nothing to do with religion.

[Gota]

But but but....if evowution izh tshru why we not see someting like half duck half cwocodile?like ah...cwocoduck.
oh wait...
http://www.nature.com/news/2002/020219/ ... 218-8.html

ten commandments,origined in the middle east and were actually a version of similar rules written earlier.may of the old testament stories are also versions of older myths.
Ten comendments are just the necessary memes to have a larger amount of population living together effectively.

[zwzsg]

You are mistaken Z. The bug bang was originally conspired as a way to take a God out of the equation, however, in a way, a big bang of sorts while not making much scientific sense, would be a way of describing creation.

The big bang was originally thought out by a christian priest, Georges Lemaître, and actually neatly fit with the genesis. Just as one exemple, the genesis had that line about "Let there be light", and the modern Big Bang model explains that the universe had to expand a bit before light could freely flow.

Denial of a theory? Well, duh. The big bang is only a theory. I assume you understand the difference between scientific theories and scientific laws... For example the laws of gravity, which can be readily proven.

I already told you that "theory" in science keeps getting called theories even after they've been proven and generally taken for true.

Well these two are pretty self explanatory. Don't worship false gods and don't put the importance of anything worldly before me (in other words, don't get so wrapped up in shit that you lose sight).

More like, everybody who believe in other gods is wrong. Also, before, everybody was polytheist. You could pray to a Mesopotamian god for something, and Greek god for something else, there was no contradiction. Religions could peaceful coexist. The Jewish/Islamic/Christian god, on the other hand, demands exclusivity, and hatred toward any other religions.

Pretty simple, don't curse God's name.

Which everybody, religious or not, does routinely.

Widely recognized as a weekly day of rest. Or a restful day. In other words, this is your "Happy day", enjoy it as much as possible.

Too bad the unleashed capitalism of today is destroying that. Making it compulsory to have a rest day per week was a pretty good thing, from a human development point of view.

Listen to your parents, and don't dishonor them.

When you're a child, it goes without saying. When you're older, while it's true you should care for you parent, there should be some condition that allow children to get free of their parent whim.

Don't commit murder.

It sorta misses the widely recognised cases of war, self-defense, legal death sentence, and KILLING THE HERETICS!

I submit that to have a meaningful relationship with God simply following the above rules is enough.

You know, about every atheist is also deeply convinced that stealing, murdering, cheating on your wife, neglecting your parents are very bad things. You don't need a god to have morals.

Also, last time I mentionned the ten commandments, couple page ago, you said old testament should be discounted for being too old. How comes you're now saying they're the only important bit of your religion?

I am not particularly religious, but I come from a christian family, and my father and brothers are excellent role models and are very good people.

In the same way that there's no news report about the billion muslim that did not protest against facebook and peacefully stayed at home or minded their own business, we're pretty much okay with mild christian that don't take everything at face value but just go with the general idea of doing wrong is bad, doing good is nice. It's just the religious nutjob with the crazy theories that are interesting. And scary when they get into power.

"Why is it so important to scream at the top of your lungs that there is no God and violently oppose anything to the contrary?".

Because truely believing in god makes you act in irrational way. It causes artists and doctor to be murdered, even today in western countries. It is used as a tool by religious leader to control masses (the leader will say that he's in power only because god let him so, and that therefore people not obeying him are guilty of not obeying god). It stands against improving the standard of human living (you can keep people in shit condition all their live by luring them with promisses of a better afterlife). It's a gaping flaw in reason, that can, and has been used, to justify anything and everything. The archetypal cases being: not healing people, saying they'll survive if god wills so.

As many of you probably don't know (due to lack of exposure), there are myriads of different protestant christian denominations

Yep, the US especially has tons of slightly different protestant sects and chapels. Would be cool to have more catholic in there, they are a more unified group.

Its impossible to argue with people not educated in the subject you want to argue about.

I'm fascinated by how humans, living in the same western society as me, and that I still take for rational being, can throw all their logic out the window when it comes to faith. I'd like to map what they accept and what they don't, to locate the precise point where their common sense breaks down, and study better how this happens.

If someone wishes to believe into something without reason, I suggest you let them do so.

That's dangerous. Because that someone will vote, and cause like-minded to be elected, which will push retrograde law unto me and my children.

And also, back on topic, I would feel safer if I was assured I'm free to draw any historical figure, let me daughter go out with head uncovered, get an abortion instead of an handicaped child, etc...

I hope, that over time such people show lower reproductive success (no need for drugs, god will heal me!) and eliminate this annoying trait from humans!

Sadly, no. Both christianism and islams favor making plenty of babies, both in theory and practice. And both are quick to use modern medicin when they need it. Just, later, after they've been saved, they'll sue for having tranfused them blood, or for having transplanted them pork cells, so they can get some media coverage and further their political agenda.

[TradeMark]

Why is it so necessary to offend someones sacred things or hurt sensitive feelings intentionally? No other way to go?

Think about it this way... if i killed you because you wore a t-shirt that had twisted duck image in it. Now they put me in jail, but i have followers who do the same. My followers will say that if you (you as everyone) ever draw duck in wrong way again, they will kill you and your families. I believe in holy ducks, still it doesnt give me any privileges to do whatever i want. Now your brother is very pissed off at what happened to you, he cant take it anymore... hes thinking to kill all those fucking duck believers, but his parents taught him some self-discipline when he was young. so instead of bombing the duck believers, he makes up a Facebook account instead. Now which one is the bad boy again?

I agree, brainwashing is never good, and it should be stopped. Making all religions illegal would be the best choice.

Now this is very sad... Banning all religions? Making illegal something that is part and the very reason of our current existence, the natural human affection and tendency to ethical, philosophical, cosmological reasoning? You shouldn't think religion as an institution or dogmatic monotheistic monster in every case, but ultimately as a way of thinking and coping in life.

Dont be so melodramatic. Religions are outdated in these days where we use advanced ways of thinking.

We have to ban ALL religions because of this one single religion. Then we are being fair for all of us. If we banned only Islam, then they would feel unjustified and start raging even more.

What prevents you from believing in some imaginary thing if its all happening in your head after all? Even if all religions were banned, nothing stops you from believing in it! The only difference will be that you cant use religion as an excuse for anything. And that is the best choice, religions should be only in your head anyways, not in some groups where you gang with them and rage against others because you feel bored at the moment and want to feel you belong to some group. Facebook is for that in these days, use it. It doesnt harm any grown up one.

[Jazcash]

Think about it this way... if i killed you because you wore a t-shirt that had twisted duck image in it. Now they put me in jail, but i have followers who do the same. My followers will say that if you (you as everyone) ever draw duck in wrong way again, they will kill you and your families. I believe in holy ducks, still it doesnt give me any privileges to do whatever i want. Now your brother is very pissed off at what happened to you, he cant take it anymore... hes thinking to kill all those fucking duck believers, but his parents taught him some self-discipline when he was young. so instead of bombing the duck believers, he makes up a Facebook account instead. Now which one is the bad boy again?

I got confused after you killed him and then blackmailed him after he died.

[thelawenforcer]

forboding angel,

actually the big bang theory (as in the proper scientific theory) was first suggested by a belgian priest. It was strongly opposed because a) people thought it was an attempt to bring god into cosmology, and b) becuase people thought the universe was static or cyclical at that time.

in the end, the evidence for the BB was irrefutable and thats why its taught now.

(just a funny way to see evidence of the bigbang yourself is to switch on an analogue TV, and put it on an empty channel, part of that static is actually the cosmic microwave background, which was predicted as part of the big bang theory and subsequently discovered in the 50s)

[JohannesH]

Whether something is called theory has nothing to do with how true it is.

Scientific theory is just a theory that was devised with the scientific method. From there on you do research and see if the theory holds. With scientific method you can't undeniably verify a theory either.

And scientific law does not mean that it's something totally proven, like Newton's laws of motion for example, are actually not true. Though still useful approximations for stuff in your everyday situation.

Oh and astrophysicists don't directly research big bang stuffs, it's cosmologists field. (and no, cosmology does not mean russian astrology)

[TradeMark]

I got confused after you killed him and then blackmailed him after he died.

damn english... when do you invent word to say "you" as "you everyone"

Also, if not ban religions, why not add age limit to them? I mean, cmon, we have age limits on movies for a reason. Religions will twist your head too. A child doesnt have the proper understanding for religious life lessons etc, their brains arent enough developed to understand complex stuff like that. If there was age limit, lets say 24, it would be fine IMO.

I would say its child molesting to push the belief into your kids heads. And that should be a crime. They should have the freedom to choose where they believe, but after 10 years of manipulating, its impossible to choose other way. That is also main reason why some religions grow so fast. IT doesnt mean god exists if people can manipulate millions of people to their own belief.

[zwzsg]

We have to ban ALL religions because of this one single religion. Then we are being fair for all of us. If we banned only Islam, then they would feel unjustified and start raging even more.

Banning a religion only makes it stronger. The Hebrew faith grew strong because they were a small oppressed people. The more christians were thrown to the lions, the more newly converts joined them.

Beside, banning all religion from earth, at once, now, is an impossible goal. What should be done, instead, is draw a firm line that should not be crossed, preferably formulated in secular term, and then defends it.

Also, if not ban religions, why not add age limit to them? I mean, cmon, we have age limits on movies for a reason. Religions will twist your head too. A child doesnt have the proper understanding for religious life lessons etc, their brains arent enough developed to understand complex stuff like that. If there was age limit, lets say 24, it would be fine IMO.

Would you mind if for now, we'd focus on keeping religious teaching out of compulsory education of public school?

I got confused after you killed him and then blackmailed him after he died.

Geeze, make a little effort, you're comforting my stereotype that believers are dumb people there.




Here, I'll help you:

TradeMark is transposing "Mahomet" with "duck". He's describing an hypothetical situation, with strong parallel to the deal with Mahomet's pictures, but hope to cool off the feelings by refering to an inexisten church of the holy duck instead of Islam.

Characters:
- Trademark. A strong believer of the church of duck, he will go to any length to prevent duck honor to be tainted.
- Tadermak followers: Think like Trademark, but their actions are limited to yelling and menacing.
- SirArturri: an artist, a drawer of some sort.
- SirArturri's brother: Driven by sorrow and revenge.

Course of events:
- Trademark follows a religion that forbids making caricature of duck.
- SirArtturi draws a twisted duck.
- Fueled by faith, Trademark kills SirArturri.
- Trademark is jailed for murder.
- Trademarks congregates threaten to kill everybody who draw ducks.
- SirArturri's brother is angered.
- SirArturri's brother wants to avenge his brother.
- SirArturri's brother manage to suppress his urge of murdering rampage.
- SirArturri's brother is thankful for his good atheist education that helps him stay calm.
- SirArturri's brother post a stickman duck on facebook.

I'll stress the two tricky bits:
- SirArturri and his brother each have a life. You can kill one, and the other survives.
- Tradermark is not alone in the church of the holy duck. You can jail one, and the others remain free.

Now, the question is, and keep in mind you made me a promise to maintain the pretense you share the same qualities, properties, and personalities as of a cake, as long as such is my pleasure to hold my opinion, would such a situation arise, who would be wrong, ethically speaking? The one who endanger his life by excersizing his rightfull right to draw duck in any way he wishes so, and as such drew a duck even though he cannot draw a duck, since he's not a drawer, but can draw a duck, in a legal way, but can't draw a duck, according to the duck believers, or the ones who swear they will kill the one who draw the picture of a duck in memory of the one who drew pictures of a twisted duck and was killed by those who menace to kill the ones who drew pictures of ducks, the same way one of the ones killed the one that drew a picture of twisted duck, only because he could draw a picture of duck, being a drawer, and also he thought he was allowed to draw duck in a secular, but not duckular, way, even even though the ones who would later back up the one who would kill him disagree about the bit that duck could be drew, even if the one drawing the duck does not abide by the faith of the ducky ones?

I hope that cleared thing a bit.

[Jazcash]

I got confused after you killed him and then blackmailed him after he died.

Geeze, make a little effort, you're comforting my stereotype that believers are dumb people there.

It's not my fault Trade struggles at expressing what he's trying to say. Not to mention my comment was light hearted, using this as evidence for "Believers being dumb" is more than stupid on your part. I think if cakes were used instead it would be a whole lot easier to understand.

[TradeMark]

We have to ban ALL religions because of this one single religion. Then we are being fair for all of us. If we banned only Islam, then they would feel unjustified and start raging even more.

Banning a religion only makes it stronger. The Hebrew faith grew strong because they were a small oppressed people. The more christians were thrown to the lions, the more newly converts joined them.

well yeah, maybe ban is a bit too extreme, but age limit would be fine...

Also, if not ban religions, why not add age limit to them? I mean, cmon, we have age limits on movies for a reason. Religions will twist your head too. A child doesnt have the proper understanding for religious life lessons etc, their brains arent enough developed to understand complex stuff like that. If there was age limit, lets say 24, it would be fine IMO.

Would you mind if for now, we'd focus on keeping religious teaching out of compulsory education of public school?

Yeah, sure. I felt that way since i first time heard religious bullshit in my elementary school. Although, the teachings in such classes are good in some ways, but there is lots of bullshit that kids shouldnt be hearing about. Also, there already are non-religious classes for that exact same purpose, its called "life lessons" here or something XD, that would be perfect, i actually always wanted to go in such classes instead... didnt like the religious shit at all. Felt like they are pushing thoughts in my head. Not to mention that it was really boring to listen endless stories about Jesus and Maria...

Edit: And for jaz, you shouldnt read too strictly if that guys mother tongue isnt english... look at the "location" under the avatars. (yeah, i also hate how 90% of people uses it wrong >_<).

[Gota]

Banning religions is not good.Religion and religious establishments should go away naturally as people educate themselves.
Smarter people can still believe in god but they are not blind and have very complex thoughts about the subject matter that bare no resemblance to the primitive discussions about religion the hordes hold.

acknowledging we do not know everything is in itself sort of an acknowledgment of the possible existence of something we do not understand,maybe something that somehow influences us or was one of the reasons we are here now.
To actually believe some being that resembles us is effecting us,dictating books and sending messengers to us and condeming us to hell or heaven in the afterlife is the primitive part which i mean when i say it needs to vanish naturally.
Education,education,education.the lack of it is the reason for such naivety of mind.

All you need,to cast away religious indoctrination,is enough introspection to see where your believes stem from,this comes from first of all humility,as oppose to the religious arrogance of proclaiming to know the absolute truth,second of all proper reasoning abilities and enough general,broader information and integrity to see that scientific methods have been proven over and over again and the evidence it supplies that relates to religion is in no way different in its quality to other evidence science has given us,on which we base our modern life.

[Forboding Angel]

Some notes (z's post was huge):
The Big Bang, Widely accepted or not, has never been "Proven", so it remains a theory (or hypothesis if you will).

and hatred toward any other religions.

THis is blatantly false. YOur first sentence was right. "everybody who believe in other gods is wrong." <-- Not shocking

Also, last time I mentionned the ten commandments, couple page ago, you said old testament should be discounted for being too old. How comes you're now saying they're the only important bit of your religion?

No I didn't. You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was that Leviticus and Deuteronomy were the old laws, and were negated by christ's death. Once again, some biblical knowledge would have helped you come to that conclusion on your own.

Because truely believing in god makes you act in irrational way.

You're using a really broad brush here, and what you say is inherently false. Simply believing in a deity does not make you act irrationally. In fact, perhaps you are the one who acts irrationally because you don't believe in a deity.

[JohannesH]

Some notes (z's post was huge):
The Big Bang, Widely accepted or not, has never been "Proven", so it remains a theory (or hypothesis if you will).

Yes, just like everything else. You don't "Prove" anything conclusively with scientific method. That's the whole point of it.

Feel free to come up with a theory that goes as well together with empirical data collected, or some evidence that debunks the big bang.



And there's no point in trying to judge whether someone acts rationally or irrationally, there's no objective guideline how a man should behave

[Otherside]

I deffo agree religion should be kept out of school.

I cant believe they removed evolution out of science books in school...

[Sucky_Lord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

This sums up just one of the problems with the Bible, I really found watching this funny