Thinking Out Loud

[SanadaUjiosan]

As the title implies, this is just my online version of thinking out loud. All of this is purely speculative, and I have no intention of pursuing either of these ideas, at least now (and probably not for a long time, if ever.)

Modern Marvels is on and it's been talking about the ice breaker ships. Got me to thinking, if anyone's ever thought about making something like sea ice in spring. What I'm talking about is sort of like a layer of something "hard" over water, that can crack off and be busted apart, and would inhibit ships but would allow travel by land units. Weight would of course be a factor, and a unit that was too heavy would break through and hit the bottom of the seafloor (and if it wasn't amphibious, it was screwed.) But also, say, a unit that could get out onto the ice, but was pushing the limit, could eventually cause the ice to splinter and drift away the longer it was on the ice. This idea of course then leads into the topic of the Modern Marvels, and could open the possibility of a boat/unit that was designed to crack the ice.

I understand that something like this would probably be crazy to implement, and also that what it could bring strategically/tactically to Spring may not be that substantial. Thinking about it, I don't know of a strategy game that implements ice in a realistic way. Usually it's just a tileset.

The other thing I'm pondering is far simpler. In the same vein as ships, I was wondering if anyone's ever sought to create a mod that was mostly/entirely a naval combat sim. That is, it's made to be played on maps that almost entirely feature water, and all of it's units are large naval ships (and probably some carrier planes as well!). Spring is such a great engine, when I imagine such a game I can't help but think of how cool it would be.

Just thought I'd share some of my musings, see if others have anything to add/subtract from them.

[Das Bruce]

There was a naval warfare game being developed, but I haven't heard anything about it for a long time.

[Sausage]

In games like BA they make ships long and boring to make and then the ships aren't very great because it's supposed to be balanced sea with land, but if you had a entirely sea mod you could totally spam ships and have fun massive sea battles (which you rarely ever see in BA). You could also have sea shields, sea vlrpc ships, nuke ships.. all kinds. As long as there is skill/micro involved I think it would be a fun mod.

[Gota]

In games like BA they make ships long and boring to make and then the ships aren't very great because it's supposed to be balanced sea with land, but if you had a entirely sea mod you could totally spam ships and have fun massive sea battles (which you rarely ever see in BA). You could also have sea shields, sea vlrpc ships, nuke ships.. all kinds. As long as there is skill/micro involved I think it would be a fun mod.

To make a game based around sea you need healthier underwater play.
You need maps with deep underwater terrain and subs moving at different levels of depth and that making some sort of difference and a camera mod that allowes you to easily go underwater and above water.
You'll need to have maps with underwater hills and have several units moving on the bottom of the sea and of course many underwater buildings.

If you just make it like BA sea only add a few units it'll just feel like a minimod.

[Sausage]

Depth level would be pretty cool. You chose a depth then it takes like 2 minutes for the sub to sink to a really low depth then it would be undetectable to radars unless it was right under them, then you could rise back up again and pwn. What a cool idea.

[j5mello]

anyone who played C&C Tiberian Sun (which is now free to dl btw) should remember that the ice in that game could only support hover units and infantry. tanks would fall through if they drove out on the ice.

probably the reason its never be done is because it would be a lot of work to setup even halfway not to mention all the potentially moving ice would be a hindrance in multiplayer games.

[VonGratz]

There was a naval warfare game being developed, but I haven't heard anything about it for a long time.

I think that is my BattleFleet, firstly launched as TA-BattleFleet, but trough the time with so several modifications that Ive resolved start a new from the scratch.I still dont give up, but Im in a very slow pace,
because my spare time not is great and I cant still learn all about texture and maps to develop all I desire.

Depth level would be pretty cool. You chose a depth then it takes like 2 minutes for the sub to sink to a really low depth then it would be undetectable to radars unless it was right under them, then you could rise back up again and pwn. What a cool idea.

In first Spring versions, a guy made a test with deeper waters.I have the images of it, as Ive tested a submarine in that map.


vonGratz

[Argh]

I started a game about piratical rats vs. weasels- a semi-RPG RTS, with adventure elements, more DoTA than OTA, but with more RPG elements- but it never got past some early content and code, due to work on P.U.R.E.

I think that an ocean combat game could be fun. I don't think that "just move a land RTS to the sea" would be that fun, unless you just really like ships and hate having to deal with height.

[SinbadEV]

A Theory:

Naval Combat sucks in Spring because, If you look at the real-world examples of naval combat, the scale is way off.

Even "tiny little subs" are a hundred feet long. and if we're talking TA scale units, and one would assume a 2x2 footprint on a infantry unit being comparable to a human, that would be like a 100x100 unit.

Also, maps are wrong... if you had a "real" water combat there would be like 90% water between little islands

[Jazcash]

I still haven't stressed enough how much I despise BA Naval units. I've made multiple posts before on why I hate them so much but I've honestly lost the will to argue BA points now. Any debate when 1 or more person disagrees will not be considered for BA implementation.

[VonGratz]

IMHO re-scale needs a compromise with good sense and Spring limitations, not would be necessary a full scale modification.
Of course nothing like OTA ships .smaller than some mobile land units.

About maps I totally agreed with Simbad because Spring dont have , for while, maps suitable for huge air/naval/amphibious battles.
In the original TA ,from the past century, I was capable to create very good maps for aero-naval battles.

[Gota]

Air maps are completely retarded in Spring TA mods cause of how shit Air units act in them.
In TOA,air maps worked,yes.

[nightcold]

[quote="VonGratz"]IMHO re-scale needs a compromise with good sense and Spring limitations, not would be necessary a full scale modification.
Of course nothing like OTA ships .smaller than some mobile land units.
quote]

NOTA....check it out, the got the navy down beautifly(thu it dose not have that suicidal warfare feel of OTA everyone here loves so much)

yeah....subs should be able to change to different depths....maybe even surface... :D

[SanadaUjiosan]

Surfacing subs have been something I've wanted for a long time. I was able to make some of my subs surface to attack, but no command that would make them surface and stay there, as a "mode" or something similar.

[SinbadEV]

Remember Mini-Spring (it was a hack for the spring engine back in the day that just rendered everything half size... or maybe the map double size)... Could we figure out a way to do that again... but as a mod option?

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

[hamsate]

Surfacing subs have been something I've wanted for a long time. I was able to make some of my subs surface to attack, but no command that would make them surface and stay there, as a "mode" or something similar.

Expand & Exterminate (EE) had some subs which had a button which switched the subs from submerged to surface and vice versa.

[SanadaUjiosan]

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

I threw that idea around a while back. Emulating how the Total War franchise does things. Although I think it'd be neat, I think the hang up is having a unit of, for example, 8 mechs all die at the same time would be kind of frustrating. Of course, I imagine some of you fine minds could find a way to work around that.

[SinbadEV]

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

I threw that idea around a while back. Emulating how the Total War franchise does things. Although I think it'd be neat, I think the hang up is having a unit of, for example, 8 mechs all die at the same time would be kind of frustrating. Of course, I imagine some of you fine minds could find a way to work around that.

Damned Lizard Men.

[nightcold]

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

I threw that idea around a while back. Emulating how the Total War franchise does things. Although I think it'd be neat, I think the hang up is having a unit of, for example, 8 mechs all die at the same time would be kind of frustrating. Of course, I imagine some of you fine minds could find a way to work around that.

well Praetorians (a somewhat older rtt/rts game) did things a bit diffrently there.....u control squads but troops in it have thier own health...and the heath bar 4 group the is the avg of all the troops in the group u(i belive Praetorians did it like that....not sure)

squads/formations is something that i wana see in spring.... it makes it easier when u are controlling large amounts of troops, and your are also not as overwhelmed with the managing altogether

squads/formations give games a more tactical element and make games less about RPS & "i have a better economy than you, therefore i win"......

[SinbadEV]

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

I threw that idea around a while back. Emulating how the Total War franchise does things. Although I think it'd be neat, I think the hang up is having a unit of, for example, 8 mechs all die at the same time would be kind of frustrating. Of course, I imagine some of you fine minds could find a way to work around that.

well Praetorians (a somewhat older rtt/rts game) did things a bit diffrently there.....u control squads but troops in it have thier own health...and the heath bar 4 group the is the avg of all the troops in the group u(i belive Praetorians did it like that....not sure)

squads/formations is something that i wana see in spring.... it makes it easier when u are controlling large amounts of troops, and your are also not as overwhelmed with the managing altogether

squads/formations give games a more tactical element and make games less about RPS & "i have a better economy than you, therefore i win"......

GundamRTS Has Squads.