Yet another doomed fantasy mod?

[wilbefast]

Do you know about http://springrts.com/wiki/Units:Textures#Reflections this?

I didn't
That's so cool I actually had reflective units turned off in Spring settings though - not entirely sure if my computer can handle too many of them (seems to work fine with one cube).

For scripting, did you use lua? If so, what example unit/mod/tutorial did you use, because I can not find something that is easy enough for me

FLOZi's right, I basically learnt how the scripts work from the converted stumpy. Also maackey is using only lua scripts for meridian, and they've been very useful so far.

That stuff looks pretty darned good, and is actually one of the best showings I've ever seen by somebody that newbish.

The cube looks rather bright for something so horrific, but brightness does provide better gameplay sometimes.

Your CC license choice is good - sharing is caring. The NC clause will have a small drawback: it is not permissive enough to allow your mod (or re-uses of your content in other mods) to be distributed within the Debian/Ubuntu core.... but that's only a problem if you want your mod to be distributed as a stand-alone game within those Linux distros - players will still be able to download it and run on the base Spring engine.

Yeah, it needs a lot of work - I'm going to have to rethink some things now that I can do reflectivity (was wondering what that second texture was for...). Can't seem to make the eyes glow though...

It would be cool to get .deb packages, but I really don't want people selling stuff I'm making for free. That just doesn't seem right to me.

[mammadori]

It would be cool to get .deb packages, but I really don't want people selling stuff I'm making for free. That just doesn't seem right to me.

If you choose the clause "Share Alike" instead of "Non Commercial", it is very unlikely that your work will be put in a closed source game and that someone will make money out of it; if it someone will succeed to put in a big seller game you will manage to have their content too. Win win.

More simply leaving NC and adding SA will enable bundling your game with magazines (and have it in debian/ubuntu/other distro core and CD/DVDs) but will block game companies to leverage your work without sharing back.

[Pxtl]

It would be cool to get .deb packages, but I really don't want people selling stuff I'm making for free. That just doesn't seem right to me.

If you choose the clause "Share Alike" instead of "Non Commercial", it is very unlikely that your work will be put in a closed source game and that someone will make money out of it; if it someone will succeed to put in a big seller game you will manage to have their content too. Win win.

More simply leaving NC and adding SA will enable bundling your game with magazines (and have it in debian/ubuntu/other distro core and CD/DVDs) but will block game companies to leverage your work without sharing back.

This is overstated. Magazines ask permission or don't care and assume that if it's free for download, it can be bundled.

The distros sill use the same access to Spring's downloading systems, so they don't really _need_ the mod file itself to be included in the repos. The only reason you'd want your modfile to be in the repo is if you're marketing it as a stand-alone game the way that KP has its own installer.

[mammadori]

The distros sill use the same access to Spring's downloading systems, so they don't really _need_ the mod file itself to be included in the repos. The only reason you'd want your modfile to be in the repo is if you're marketing it as a stand-alone game the way that KP has its own installer.

Having it in the repositories lower really much the effort and know how needed to try the game and enter the player community; I had some real life examples about that issue with some friends of mine who felt lost having just Springlobby and Spring at first.

[wilbefast]

True - hence it's good to have it in .deb, for the sake of people who are neither stubbornly persistent nor experienced (I like to think of myself as a "stubborn noob").

I've been thinking: if it's "Share Alike" it can't really be Commercial anyway, because you'd have to share your source and if you share your source you only need one person to buy it and re-release it for free
The only way Open Source can make money is if it's commissioned - not that there's anything wrong with that only it doesn't work so well for games.
Or does it? Think of "Mount and Blade" or "Overgrowth" - they're effectively funding the development of their games through pre-orders, so they may not actually sell that many more copies once they're finished - isn't that the same as a commission? I like the idea of independent development sponsored by the community, rather than big business tricking you into buying another same-y brown-y grey FPS which doesn't even run well on your computer.

On a side note, I've also been thinking: it may seem like a more logically thing to do to work on CA or something ("we're stretched as it is") but I think if we provide a bit more variety we'll expand the player-base, and if some of those player start modding we'll be less stretched.
Many people still think of "Spring" as "TA-Spring", and if we want to change that there needs to be a good variety of different games with different looks and settings. I hope that one day you'll be able to type "Spring" into Google and actually find it.

William

[BrainDamage]

I hope that one day you'll be able to type "Spring" into Google and actually find it.

if you'd have actually tried you'd have discovered it's at the 7th place in the result for "spring", and at fist for "spring rts" or "spring game" and any other similar combos. and before you'll say "oh be it should be first", with my screen resolution it still is contained in the first screen of results making it quite evident to the reader.

[wilbefast]

I hope that one day you'll be able to type "Spring" into Google and actually find it.

if you'd have actually tried you'd have discovered it's at the 7th place in the result for "spring", and at fist for "spring rts" or "spring game" and any other similar combos. and before you'll say "oh be it should be first", with my screen resolution it still is contained in the first screen of results making it quite evident to the reader.

Scroll down?! But that would require reading!! You expect me to read something? What are you, fifty!? Reading is for people with an attention span, and my generation traded our's in exchange for Pokemon cards

I suppose Spring is a pretty ambivalent name, shouldn't expect it to be the first in the list...

I've been working on the Trojan-horse-golem-thing: the UV mapping has been very time consuming since it's a rather complicated model. Also the first time I tried I left the model in it's natural position rather than laying it out so that the surfaces would be easier to select.
I learnt my lesson though, deleted the left arm and the left leg and put him into the standard "akimbo" pose to make it simpler (so that's why models are always in that pose!?)


I'm backing up my files so I can upgrade to Ubuntu 9.10 64 bit I discovered a couple of old version of the cube - makes for an interesting look at the evolution of the model from square to round:


Otherwise haven't accomplished much this weekend - figured I should play Spring with some actual people rather than just bots, only this tends to bring out my merciless psychopath side which is somewhat frightening.
Also tried to have a game with my brothers in Australia only they had a lot of trouble getting Spring installed properly (it's hard to explain over MSN, especially since I'm not using XP and they are). As a result I booted up my Windows partition and made them a tutorial, which I might post somewhere on the forum...

So yeah, I'm sure I won't have huge amounts of trouble with my keyboard, speakers and internet connect when I install 9.10

Wish me luck,


William

[wilbefast]

Sorry for the lack of progress of late - I am still working on this, just had a few delays what with upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10 and exams at uni. I've also been looking at various way of doing my textures:

First up I did a similar thing to the cube: base coat that a series of low-opacity layers build up on top of each-other - the eye and nose came out very well, but as for the general "skin" texture...


This works quite well for flesh but rock is a lot sharper-looking: the granulations are too big and too blurred.
I have a go at baking ambient occlusion on the texture (basically approximates and draws shadows) - aGorm has been using this for his bears using the dev version of Wings3D: you essentially smooth the model so it's absurdly high polygon and the ambient occlusion will be realistic, then export the resulting texture and import it back into the lower polygon model.
Sounds simple but I having really figured out it yet - still, I got to see what the horse would look like if it was higher polygon:


In the end I've decided to do a first pass over the whole model, get the high-lights and shadows done and then go back over it to apply texture and detail. Here's what I've done so far:


I bet smoth is going to tell me I'm wasting far too much time on this one model. It's actually more that I haven't had much time to work on anything, so it seems like I've spent ages on it: I'll be happy to move on to the next one.

[Guessmyname]

1) Just use meshmapper. It's a lot less fiddly, and still free.
2) Don't bother cell-shading. Just paint it on properly, it'll result in a lot less bad habits later! Trust me!

[wilbefast]

I googled "meshmapper" but I'm not entirely sure which of the results is the one you're talking about or what it's supposed to do If it's a way of making maps, that may be of great use, because I'm constantly getting maps that don't line up properly, overlap or which have triangle twisted up inside eachother.
My model isn't perfectly symmetrical of course, because I didn't make half and then mirror it as I probably should have done, and this likely doesn't help. I recently learnt how to remap various parts manually though, so if push comes to shove I can fix the result, it just takes a while.

Maackey hasn't been doing the textures for his models for Meridian - I wonder if I should press ahead and get the models done and in game before work on making the texture really nice, especially since until everything has been tested in game there's a chance things will be changed or cut out

thoughts?


PS - If I could paint properly, I wouldn't be doing a "cell shading" undercoat
I'm not actually particularly good at anything you see, but I do have my enthusiasm - surely this will be enough

[Neddie]

Maackey has other people making textures, myself included. If you're going it alone I would push the models, then push basic textures, then do the details as possible.

[wilbefast]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I've done two "proof of concept" models + textures + scripts already, so now I think I'll make all the granite "pieces" before doing the fancy textures. Probably wise to get one animated before moving on to the next though - I haven't animated any bipeds in Spring yet, and I'm worried that the part won't work as I envisaged or something: better to do this part one by one. As for textures... a similar problem may occur.

In the end when you make a model you need to have in mind the texture and the animation script, and how can you have these things in mind without experience

[wilbefast]

Car wants me to play a lot more Spring before I go much further. Sadly it seems like the the only game that people want to play online is BA. Guess I'll have to play BA

Anyway, the Trojan is in game and animated: he breathes in and out, can walk around and can extend-o-punch people in the face. Looking really good so far

I've started modelling my next unit: the Aries. This will be one the 3 "pawns", cheap and spammable. Early game for the Promeatheans will be dominated by which of the three "courts" you choose to build first (granite, marble or obsidian): rather than teching up you build the other types of court to expand your choice of strategies. Basically the Prometheans have a flat tech tree like in CA.
I'm thinking very hard about how to make each court different and yet not a noob trap (granite don't have any anti-air at the moment).

edit: I felt like having some fun, so I fiddled with the units I currently have in game to make a sort of mini-game. The result ressembles a deformed love-child of Kernel Panic and Nanoblobs:
- Fugly Tank: builder + light laser attack
- Death Cube: storage + resource generation
- Trojan Horse: attack unit, drains energy (1 cube = 6 trojans)

[edit2: hang on - you can't play the replay without the mod? I'd rather not post the files on a public thread (yet) - is there any way I can make a video to show you guys? I'm on linux ]

The final game will look almost, but not exactly, unlike this

[FLOZi]

Actually I think you're doing well enough to proceed as you are.

Also, S44 games can usually be rallied up if you pester people in #s44.

[CarRepairer]

The guy's a one stripe. He hasn't tried spring yet. Just trying to be realistic.

[Neddie]

He did well enough in 1944 today.

[FLOZi]

The guy's a one stripe. He hasn't tried spring yet. Just trying to be realistic.

You don't need to play Spring to make content, I was a 3/4 stripe for a long long time.

To make something worth playing design wise, well that is different.

[smoth]

The guy's a one stripe. He hasn't tried spring yet. Just trying to be realistic.

You probably have a higher ingame time than I do.

[Guessmyname]

Considering how long I've been around, my icon's pretty pathetic as well.

[wilbefast]

People stop taking me seriously when they see that I only have one stripe. It's mostly because the only servers around are for BA and the BA player-base is made up of 12 year veterans from the days of TA, whereas although I played a lot of TA 12 years ago I eventually moved on to other games, like Warcraft 3 (which I played an unhealthy amount of over battle.net and finally learned how to be a vicious bastard). Also 12 years ago we didn't have a good enough internet connection for online play, so I only played "friendly" games with my brothers, or against bots.
All told I've played pretty much every RTS of note released in the last decade so my understanding of tactics and strategy is shallow but broad, for better or worse.

But yeah, Supreme Commander aside it's been a while since I've played TA-style game and certainly compared to people who've spent a decade perfecting their build lists I'm totally incompetent. I was watching some replays on stevezissouspring and I think people take for granted just how long this community has been alive.
That's why I avoid *A - I prefer the newer games where I have a more even footing. Trouble is there are rarely any takers so I generally play offline against bots, which doesn't earn you any cred'.

What you have to understand is that I chose Spring as an engine to build a game, rather than being a hardcore Spring player first, even though I've known about the engine for years: I went online and was beaten fairly quickly, then I went offline and played against some bots - then, satisfied that the engine was more or less what I was looking for, started learning to use the mod tools.
I'd say that I generally understand how RTSs work, although Spring, with its emphasis on terrain, mobility and line of sight, is a bit of a special case. Still, I can understand it all analytically, even if I have none of the intuitive understanding that comes from experience.


@S44 people: yeah, had good fun last night - if Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes are the yin and yang of modern RTSs, then S44 is the golden mean

Mixed metaphores ftw!