Mod specifically for Spring

Mod specifically for Spring

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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Doomweaver
Posts: 704
Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14

Mod specifically for Spring

Post by Doomweaver »

Has anyone noticed that the mods converted from TA are exactly that - conversions? We haven't really got any mods that showcase (from a balance point of view) the things Spring can do that TA can't. One of the most dominant things in Spring that is immediately noticed is that taller units with their weapon high above the ground can shoot over shorter ones.

I was thinking, perhaps a mod could be made that has this fact at the heart of its design. For example, missile towers (defenders, punishers) would be almost flat, so that LLT's can shoot over them. (Guardians) would also still be low, because they can shoot over units; they would be about as high as an LLT. Then Heavy Laser Towers would be able to shoot over ALL the aformentioned units, with Annihilators coming in as the tallest defence structure.

What's interesting about this design, is that it means there is a reason intrinsically in the game that you should advance to a high tech level. Right now, the reason you get lvl 2 units is because for the cost, they kill lvl 1. However, this is very artificial - while lvl 2 units should be better for the cost, they shouldn't absolutely make lvl 1 pointless.

The nice thing about this is that a base without high tech lvl defences is at a severe disadvantage, but a base without low tech structures is, too.

It also encourages more strategic placement of structures, as well as forcing players to use terrain more efficiently, because terrain can elevate units just as their own height does. So a good player could work out what angle to attack from in order to have least exposure to enemy fire.

Of course, tech lvl2 units aren't always going to be bigger than lvl1, but the anomolies also add strategic opportunities.

Imagine an army of ARM kbot's - Peewees and Hammers. This army works quite well, because the Peewees make up the front line (another thing, peewees should have more life), and the Hammers back them up with artillery fire.

A mobile energy weapon (Penetrator) would be the perfect backup for this army. It can shoot over all those little units, but is still under their protection.

On the other hand, imagine an army of bulldogs. They are much larger than lvl 1 kbot's, so the Mobile Energy Eeapon would be difficult to use with them. Instead, you would use mobile artillery, which can shoot over just about anything.

But the strategic opportunities go much deeper than this, even. Imagine we have two beamlaser units; one is a Vehicle, the other is a Spider.

Now consider the map "small divide". The vehicle is awsome mobile defence on this map - any units that come over the mountain can be shot by all your tall laser units, as long as they are spaced properly. Conversely, the less cost effective laser spider can walk over the mountain, and every spider that is over, but still on the slope can fire.

Image

A few more things to consider:
1.
I think all missiles should have high trajectory, just like artillery. Artillery should generally have more range and do larger area effect damage, but be less accurate, while missiles/rockets would be very accurate but suffer slightly less range and less area of effect. Missiles are also good against air, so they are not exactly the same with high trajectory.

Lasers should all be beamlasers. I'm sick and tired of lasers significantly slower than bullets. They should all also cost energy to fire, same as lightning.

That means that we need a basic weapon that does not have a high trajectory, and also does not cost energy to fire. So I reckon we use EMG and Plasma. Plasma would be kind of like artillery without high trajectory and with less range, kind of like the weapon used by Stumpy's. We could also use another 'basic' weapon or two, so suggestions are welcome.

2.
This is an opportunity for higher poly units to be sculpted! That would be really nice, you can't deny that. It makes a lot more sense for all that work to go into a new mod rather than just remaking OTA units.

3.
Dragons teeth of different heights will have huge strategic purposes, as will popup units. Just think - you build your popup lasers units in front of your artillery. Leave the popup unit on hold fire, and your opponent will no doubt try to destroy the artillery unit by closing the distance. Well, as soon as he does, get your popup lasers into the action and make mince meat of the opposition!

4.
Lvl 3 super units with more than three weapons would be very cool.

5.
Any other suggestions?
Dwarden
Posts: 278
Joined: 25 Feb 2005, 03:21

Post by Dwarden »

well i think there should be also "aimed" missiles with low / direct trajectory ...

not to mention ... what about some cruising missiles? :))
Kixxe
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Joined: 14 May 2005, 10:02

Post by Kixxe »

Adding atleast 1 new level 1 unit for both K-bots and vechiles.

Removing/adding more units to do our bidding as we want em=P

Making air power less dominat and more for support. (IMO, even if air is a GREAT advantge IRL, the real strategy is on the ground, and you know it.)

More range on higer ground! A noticebole diffrence! And posibole more damage...

Just suggestions...
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AlienDNA
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Joined: 19 Sep 2005, 13:23

Post by AlienDNA »

I think higher damage when shooting from higher ground is utter nonsense. Most games use this system to actually give higher ground a "tactical advantage", because their engines just can't handle physics like spring, where higher ground can be an advantage just because height has to do with physics. That would perhaps also mean that the "realistic" advantage is already present, it's just not as big as many would hope. But when duking it out with two stumpy's, you're probably able to hit the one below when riding the upper one, when the lower one has to come closer first.

A tactical advantage when fighting with tanks on hills usually depends on the strength of the armor on the top of the vehicle. In most WWII vehicles the armor on the front was very thick, whereas the armor on the top was less. So, tanks were vulnerable to fire coming from above. But how that armor is distributed in spring, that has yet to be decided, I guess.
Doomweaver
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Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14

Post by Doomweaver »

Kixxe wrote:Adding atleast 1 new level 1 unit for both K-bots and vechiles.
Just suggestions...
Lol, I actually meant a WHOLE new mod, in other words a TC that is quite similar to OTA. I was just using the units as an example.

Anyway, as for high ground giving a tactical advantage, it already does in Spring, and this mod will capatilise on this advantage and make it far more obvious to the casual player. But I don't think we need to artificially make units take more damage from above. Of course, if it comes to this, then it is a possibility.
Archangel of Death
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15

Post by Archangel of Death »

Lol, I hate to pimp my mod, but Battletech is going to be a bit like that. Vehicles and power armors tend to be rather low compared to mechs, and most heavy and assualt mechs will easily fire over them. Even light mechs will be able to run about under the guns of the big ones. You'll also find alot of units with lots of weapons. Only problem is it will be nothing like OTA, and will hopefully play nothing like it as well.
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Min3mat
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

i like the idea of specific damage being done to a unit when hit on specific places (eg. side or rear) to encourage ambushes and flanking and have things blown off vehicles like tracks/ disabling turret which only come back when the vehicle is @ full life (either self-repaired or by another unit) this would make level 1 a hell of a lot more fun and could mean that uber units need to supported (otherwise u could simply take a krogs legs out :D)
Doomweaver
Posts: 704
Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14

Post by Doomweaver »

Archangel of Death wrote:Even light mechs will be able to run about under the guns of the big ones. You'll also find alot of units with lots of weapons.
Wow, sounds awsome!
Archangel of Death wrote:Only problem is it will be nothing like OTA, and will hopefully play nothing like it as well.
Is the resource system similar? That's all the really matters, if it has that then i'm there!
Archangel of Death
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15

Post by Archangel of Death »

Similar as in infinite? Yes. Beyond that, well, its still undecided. I'm thinking up a somewhat different system based on 1 resource, but if we do go with that system it opens up some cool opportunities..
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Zoombie
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Joined: 15 Mar 2005, 07:08

Post by Zoombie »

Why not make it like DOW, where in you place capture flags on stratigicaly important places, like crossrodes, canyons and bottlenecks. The stratigicaly important area is marked like metal, but there is no energy. Howz that?
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Min3mat
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Post by Min3mat »

i like the idea of a one resource game, less resource management and more strategy. LOVE it, however everything would then need to be balanced by metal cost and that could take a while!
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Post by FLOZi »

Why not have energy to build and run units, and strategy points (metal) to make units. This is how AATA/CW work.
Doomweaver
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Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14

Post by Doomweaver »

Min3mat wrote:i like the idea of a one resource game, less resource management and more strategy. LOVE it, however everything would then need to be balanced by metal cost and that could take a while!
I can't say I agree. Energy is an important element because it speeds up the late game. You see, early game you have to build energy structures, but as the game progresses you reach a point where you have surplus, so you can concentrate on combat units. It basically means that although you may have access to similar amounts of resources early and late game, you will still have better units in after you've established your base.

What would be uber cool imo is not to have a global metal, but rather units HOLD the metal. Mex's hold what they that they have mined, and can hold about 200.

Units can pick it up from each other, for example a construction units would get it from your mex in order to build, and would have to return if it ran out.

You can fill up from from wreckages, a mex or a metal storage. This stops players from building their base all over the map in a formless way, but it encourgeses players to setup multiple bases, because each one can produce its own metal.

It also means that you can have units like missile units cost metal to fire in an intuitive way. They hold say 30 metal, and each missile costs 1 metal. When they run out they have to go back to base to recharge, or you can reclaim a wreckage using construction units and then give them that metal. Or, worst case, you can reclaim a live unit. :twisted:

Of course, most of this would be automated. You tell a construction unit to build somewhere, and it works out where to get the metal from.

Also, you would need something for con units like Auto-Reclaim wreckages on/off, and auto-refill units on/off.
Torrasque
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Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 23:55

Post by Torrasque »

Doomweaver : I like your idea, you will have to build you production structure near metal patch, build metal match near the combat front to recharge your units etc..

It's a very different gameplay, but I'm sur a new mod (not ripping OTA unit) based on it would be cool.
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Min3mat
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Post by Min3mat »

doomweaver with springs auto repair then a con unit could simply damage a unit knowing full well it will recover the health and that'd mean u can get metal for free! maybe u could make self-repair cost metal? like the sound of it though =)
Kixxe
Posts: 1547
Joined: 14 May 2005, 10:02

Post by Kixxe »

doomweaver with springs auto repair then a con unit could simply damage a unit knowing full well it will recover the health and that'd mean u can get metal for free! maybe u could make self-repair cost metal? like the sound of it though =)
Or we remove self repair altogether... and cons are the only unit's that can heal. Would GREATLY improve farks and necros importance (not they aren't important now...)


This mod sounds awesome...

Oh, i think we should add cheap nano towers, who can repair units that comes in retreat. imobile, and low range, good for helping on a single building, or reapiring units around em. Needs sevral to be efftive, but cheap.

Oh, and higer walls faster. Meaning a level 1 fortification wall. Increasing the importance of artillery units. (speacily level 1)

And artillery units should fire as long as rocket k-bots. or a litthe less, but not like current situation.

And about the planes, what you think? I think their importance should be toned down and gunships REMOVED or REPLACED with some kind of bomber unit. Bombers could be efftive agsint goliaths for example. but not able do defend agsint fast units like freakers or weasels...

As i said, the strategy is on the ground. Or in the sea. or floating over both. But it's not flying!

shesh, ever heard of flying startegy?
excakly!
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Min3mat
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Post by Min3mat »

kixxe dude calm it. flying strategy? how about my gunship rush which forces u too get AA and then a load of flashes come in and rape your base? or getting a gunship to raid undefended enemy expansion? eagles to spot for your berthas? A group of 6 or so lvl1 gunships to hunt down a comm stuck in the open midgame?
Strategy is using a combination of land/air etc.
Torrasque
Posts: 1022
Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 23:55

Post by Torrasque »

Min3mat wrote:kixxe dude calm it. flying strategy? how about my gunship rush which forces u too get AA and then a load of flashes come in and rape your base? or getting a gunship to raid undefended enemy expansion? eagles to spot for your berthas? A group of 6 or so lvl1 gunships to hunt down a comm stuck in the open midgame?
Strategy is using a combination of land/air etc.
That's what I have undersant, flying is used to to support ground/water operations.
But an air only stategie should not be a viable option (exept if your ennemi is really bad)
Doomweaver
Posts: 704
Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14

Post by Doomweaver »

I just had a thought...
The way it should work is Construction units can give metal to units to hold, and they should be able to reclaim the metal units are holding, but units in general should not be able to exchange metal.

So mex's would also be nanotowers so that can distribute the metal they reclaim.

Then we could have a mex that is invisible to radar, but doesn't have the nano abililty. So to get metal from it, you would need to use a construction unit, which would not be invisible to radar. Could open up some serious strategic possibilties.

i.e.

You build invisible mexes saught of between your bases and your opponents, but a bit to the side.

Whenever you attack, you pass that spot, and refill your units without slowing much. So you are saving metal, because you are not using your base's metal, but you are not giving away the position of the extractors either with some obvious giveaway like "I send a KBoT to refill here and return to base."

Makes sense?
daraknor
Posts: 40
Joined: 09 Nov 2005, 09:22

Post by daraknor »

I'm not certain how resource exchanges would work unless they used the load, unload mechanism and then a special area would convert those unloaded raw resources to refined resources.

Another possibility is having power lines. That should be fairly easy to program. Just need to check and see if there is a series of connected units between a facility and a grid, or factory. I think it would be a lot of fun if the grid was an upgrade. Also limit the amount of power that can be held by lines, and the way it is generated.

With some extensions you could quite a bit... Reduce solar power drastically, make a wind map... WW2 combat anyone?
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