Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

[PicassoCT]

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/se ... rin-effect
Interesting

[manored]

Its boring too tough :) At least for someone not living in USA and that is not worried with their social problems, if you can call that a social problem that is because, as far as I know, the bottom part still have enough to live their lives decently.

[Panda]

Weird article.

From what I can tell from being a first generation college student and from knowing other first generation college students, many people from lower class families don't bother going to college because they don't see it as a feasible goal financially. Their parents don't have any sort advice to give them as far as how to go about making it through college goes, and may even, in many instances (especially if you're female) hinder the kids' ability to make it through college due to things such as family responsibilities and other beliefs.

[PicassoCT]

Panda, i know that Phenomena- i called it for myself the PrideofbeeingStupid, the only one in my Family ever giving advice to study was my aunt, and even that advice was only, that a vague word "that it is a good time to have". From my Parents, the only support was, that "Studying" if it can´t be avoided should not focus on a "breadless subject"- so for them there is only Justice, Medicine and Engineering really even thinking about University. However, i think the Article this far is correct, as this basic thinking is implented very early in life- you swallow that subconiously, until you all of the sudden question strange ideals like "Hard Hands work is always more worth." But until that point is reached, some childs already have a inferioritycomplex- even for good Grades, which is why i found that Article in some parts quite accurate. Still i hope that all humans are born nearly equal, and would have, if the state intervented before parents can ruin there offspring, even those from the bottom could get up the ladder.

I reread my Post, it is filled with Typos and logical Errors, i could delete it, i could rework it, but i am too tired and the Fire for the Cause is not glowing hot enough this evening. Night.

[manored]

I dont think humans are born equal, And I would even say that some are born with better genes for modern life than others, but regardless the external factors are so many and significant that I would say that genes have little to none influence in one's success. And I dont think the state should intervene, if someone in the society has greater potential I dont see why he should be windered so that someone with less potential can have the same sucess.

[Panda]

I reread my Post, it is filled with Typos and logical Errors, i could delete it, i could rework it, but i am too tired and the Fire for the Cause is not glowing hot enough this evening. Night.

It's forum puke.

[FLOZi]

I dont think humans are born equal, And I would even say that some are born with better genes for modern life than others, but regardless the external factors are so many and significant that I would say that genes have little to none influence in one's success. And I dont think the state should intervene, if someone in the society has greater potential I dont see why he should be windered so that someone with less potential can have the same sucess.

Genes have little to do with success.

The social and economic conditions of your parents at birth have everything to do with it.

[smoth]

The social and economic conditions of your parents at birth have everything to do with it.

This is a load of horse shit.

general rant:
maybe for most lazy people this is true but I would like you to look my dad in the eyes, ignore his weather face and tell him that the struggles he went through to give me the chance to become a programmer where merely the conditions of my birth.

I'd like you to think on the fact that he spend the better part of my childhood working long hours in a machine shop milling out parts so I could go to college. I want you to think about the fact that rather then give me superficial crap like hanging out and generally taking off to fart around, instead he was getting shit payed.

No people are not merely born into their circumstances. Some people have spent generations working towards it. Of course what would I know, my great grandfather lived on the river and sold driftwood since people didn't need a blacksmith anymore. My grandfather didn't work in the dangerous refineries and neither did my uncles, father or even some of my cousins who still do. I didn't spend evenings after school or weekends helping my dad around the shop yard.

GRR. If it is one generalization that I do hate is that people get success because they are lucky and that everyone else got a raw deal. Some people are lazy and do not REALLY try but feel they deserve shit. It is that sort entitlement base view that makes me furious. I helped my dad on the weekends. I want you to tell me with a straight face that I was just born into the socio economic class that I am now! it took 25 years of being frugal intelligent and working really hard for my father to elevate this family. I plan on continuing that and it had nothing to do with the circumstances of my birth and everything to do with the man that my father is.

[Forboding Angel]

Ya know, I know of a certain talk shot host who dropped out of college, got fired from "Big Media" and now makes over 40 million a year.

Inequality exists because there are a large amount of idiots in our society who think that everything should be given to them and they shouldn't have to work hard to attain their goals.

And flozi, sorry dude, you're full of it.

[Sleksa]

I'd like you to think on the fact that he spend the better part of my childhood working long hours in a machine shop milling out parts so I could go to college. I want you to think about the fact that rather then give me superficial crap like hanging out and generally taking off to fart around, instead he was getting shit payed.

For me, going to college was a natural choice because my parents had also gone through it , and it was free for me.

So, atleast in my case, social and economical conditions of my parents(and the society) definately directed me towards college.

Also, while there are exceptions like forboding's talk show host, generally people follow the directions of their parents in regards of studying/work.

No people are not merely born into their circumstances. Some people have spent generations working towards it. Of course what would I know, my great grandfather lived on the river and sold driftwood since people didn't need a blacksmith anymore. My grandfather didn't work in the dangerous refineries and neither did my uncles, father or even some of my cousins who still do. I didn't spend evenings after school or weekends helping my dad around the shop yard.

it took 25 years of being frugal intelligent and working really hard for my father to elevate this family.

living in a caste system, this would be impossible.

However since most of us live in a western society which promotes freedom equality etc, being born into certain families (lower class, upper class) does not hinder the possibility of moving around.

Besides the differences arent really that black and white anymore as they used to be in the early 1900's

I plan on continuing that and it had nothing to do with the circumstances of my birth and everything to do with the man that my father is.

yes,

For example my other grandfather came from karelia, which was occupied by russians in the winter war, went to vocational school after the army and became a car-repairer (working in a garage around the clock) and my other grandfather was a sailor.

despite this, both of my parents are engineers

And while the socio-economical situations dont directly tell, what kind of a education one's children will have, it definately directs the level of education, statistically. just like picasso said:

Panda, i know that Phenomena- i called it for myself the PrideofbeeingStupid, the only one in my Family ever giving advice to study was my aunt, and even that advice was only, that a vague word "that it is a good time to have". From my Parents, the only support was, that "Studying" if it can´t be avoided should not focus on a "breadless subject"so for them there is only Justice, Medicine and Engineering really even thinking about University. However, i think the Article this far is correct, as this basic thinking is implented very early in life- you swallow that subconiously, until you all of the sudden question strange ideals like "Hard Hands work is always more worth."

[tombom]

got fired from "Big Media"

uh-huh

And what you are born into obviously makes a large difference to your life in general.

[smoth]

sleksa, sure in a *caste system* at least you can still become a prized peasant maybe even get some privileges. Even slaves could sometimes get that in the old south, or so I am told. Then again my family didn't live here then, what family that I did have here at the time were like hill billies/native American mix or something like that.

I do not know of any caste based countries anymore beyond places like india. Good luck getting out of that shit. I do know many indians who came here to go to college but I suspect they were not carpet makers or untouchables. Either way none of us live there so it is to us irrelevant.

Tombom, rich dumbasses can blow the family fortune. Just because you are born into money doesn't always mean you or your children will hold on to it.

Eitherway, the rich have it made and the poor have it so hard is an entitlement based view. No one is entitled to anything, we are given the opportunity to rise above what we were here in the US, probably other countries as well, I cannot pretend to know the systems there. The point is that merely being fired out of a vagina screaming, and just being born of said vagina does not make you better or worse.

[manored]

Then you are talking about a society as a whole you HAVE to generalize, if you add an exception in your study for ever exception nobody will understand it, then you will not be able to help the majority because you are worried about the minority.

Beside the social and economy factors, people are also influenced by randow factors such as the personality of the parents or seeing UFOs. Im calling then randow because there is no way a survey can nor has time to discover all of then, people dont write down ever and all of their thoughts.

I think culture also has a strong influence. For example people from Brazil, altough friendly, are a especially dishonest kind, so chances of a brazilian becoming a criminal are probally greater than that of a outsider living here in similar conditions.

[Jasper1984]

I agree that people can do a lot to improve their either their own socioeconomic circumstance, or that of their family/friends/etc. But i also think vertical mobility should be promoted, and people starting higher up simply do have it easier.
Deciding to not try something, just because other people have it easier, is lame. I do not get why smoth gets all defensive about it, though.

I also believe in promoting vertical mobility in society. Luckily, in the Netherlands you can get an education regardless of whether your father is dedicated. I have the feeling that scholarships in the US are by themselves too little, and that it(edit: the system) makes it(edit: getting an education) too hard for some people. There are other factors too, like crime, of course.

[manored]

Why promote vertical mobility? For someone to go up, someone must go down. You getting rich is good for you, but even if you got rich with one dollar from ever person in the country that will do no good for the country itself, so the govern shouldnt worry about it. Off course it shouldnt let the distance between rich and poor grow to the point where poor people cant even eat.

People like the idea of vertical mobility so they have something to hope for: getting a better life. But I personally think people should instead hope that the world will become a peacefull place, with for example people just not being born instead of being born and then dying of hunger.

[smoth]

. I do not get why smoth gets all defensive about it, though.

Not defensive, enraged. I personally know people who think they should have a swank job/paylevel, not because they can do it but because they think they are special and have not worked to earned the chance at said job/paylevel.

I do get defensive/offended when people act like successful people had it handed to them. Stupid people act that way about "smart" people. Even though some people have earned their skills not due to natural pre-disposition but from hard work.

I have the feeling that scholarships in the US are by themselves too little, and that it makes it too hard for some people.

It is a sensitive issue but I will say it, it is hard for a non-minority to get a scholarship in the us. Many scholarships are meant for minorities only. So most of the white people I went to college with, including panda are swimming in debt.

The situation with scholarships is so bad that I know some black people who refuse to accept or apply for them as they see it as appealing to people based on race.

In before black people have it harder, racism etc. Let's not get into all of that, it is ugly but the point stands that most white males will not see a scholarship outside of something like the TOPS program or music/being exceptionally poor/having a very high IQ score/act score.

rich white people like to donate to minorities because many people think better of them for it. IMO it is the highest form of patronizing condescension. But that is for another thread.

Anyway, I hope that clears my concerns/frustrations up for you jasper.

[smoth]

People like the idea of vertical mobility so they have something to hope for: getting a better life. But I personally think people should instead hope that the world will become a peacefull place, with for example people just not being born instead of being born and then dying of hunger.

World peace means no population culling. Don't say you want world hunger to be solved! If there was no wars, disease, food shortages we would exhaust the already strained planet to the point that we would go to war for resources anyway, we would cause our own extinction through overpopulation. Unchallenged growth would be the end of us.
christ you guys are turning this place into TAU's T&D. What PILLS ARE YOU ON MANNERED?

[tombom]

i would like some horizontal mobility

(because i am so fat i cannot move help me)

[Zpock]

Problem is that people can't just do stuff, like if I lived in the ancient times and needed money I could just go chop down some tree's, plant things in the ground or build a boat and trade, today everything is too f****** complicated.

[smoth]

Maybe it was because I lived in louisiana Zpock, but I know guys who would build swings/chairs etc or cut wood as a profession. I even worked on a shrimp boat for a summer.