There is plenty of history, but (just like the Xel'Naga, say) at the heart of it all is a mystery.Elkvis wrote:Oh, come on now... Thats such a cop out.Saktoth wrote:The origin of the robots is left purposefully ambivalent. The campaign if we ever have one will drop a lot of hints as to what happened to humanity and never resolve it.
People like a universe with a bit of history, a tangible backbone of a story.
Complete Annihilation News
Moderator: Content Developer
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Re: Complete Annihilation News
The biggest problem faced when trying to put history in an RTS is the gameworld takes a massive backseat in multiplayer.
Take CA, currently you don't see teams lining up Arm vs Core to duke it out. Lots of the games that are played don't make sense in the game universe. This happens in StarCraft. People say the story is cool n all, but really the reason the game is popular is the core gameplay, not the story. When we laddered 2v2 we were often random, and the teams that fought each other make little sense when placed into the gameworld that's supposed to represent it.
Backstory plays a much larger prospect in singleplayer, whereby the player is often dragged by his/her nose through the game in sometime fairly infuriating circumstances.
The problem CA has is it's primarily a mp team based rts. Therefore the backstory has to more or less be put on hold to play the game (less some dynamic system evolves).
I'm not saying backstory is bad, I'm just thinking it's not terribly important to the success/failure of the popularity of the game.
Take CA, currently you don't see teams lining up Arm vs Core to duke it out. Lots of the games that are played don't make sense in the game universe. This happens in StarCraft. People say the story is cool n all, but really the reason the game is popular is the core gameplay, not the story. When we laddered 2v2 we were often random, and the teams that fought each other make little sense when placed into the gameworld that's supposed to represent it.
Backstory plays a much larger prospect in singleplayer, whereby the player is often dragged by his/her nose through the game in sometime fairly infuriating circumstances.
The problem CA has is it's primarily a mp team based rts. Therefore the backstory has to more or less be put on hold to play the game (less some dynamic system evolves).
I'm not saying backstory is bad, I'm just thinking it's not terribly important to the success/failure of the popularity of the game.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
I am going to go on a limb here and frankly, I am too ill to argue, so don't bother and if you disagree you can just ignore my points and move on.
NO STORY
NO Overarching designs
you should not have either item, setting an absolute design concept and story locks your design decisions. believe me, in gundam I have long wanted to do something different but having a set story and art to go by does restrict me and require extra creativity on my part.
What makes the TA base projects good is their simple premise of clone/machine war over a millenia and the insanity that may have ensued.
the story is open ended enough to not lock anything down, I mean fuck, we are never told for sure that they were human.
There is a certain magic to allowing the player to fill in the blanks for the units and characters in the game. Let them have that headspace, after all the competitive players could give a shit about story and the casual guys just need a loose biscuit.
my favorite design tip of all time was from LevelLord, this is a paraphrase..
Always give the players a little more outside of the level, somwhere that looks cool and the player might want to go to but never let them.
it is important in story to leave huge gaping goatse style holes, it lets the player take his/her imagination and run wild.
all this unified unit design concept crap and story crap mucks up the game. Let the player have a taste of something really cool, let them know there there is more but NEVER give it to them. Better that they see it is there, feel the need to fill in that blank and become ensnared by that last bit of info.
NO STORY
NO Overarching designs
you should not have either item, setting an absolute design concept and story locks your design decisions. believe me, in gundam I have long wanted to do something different but having a set story and art to go by does restrict me and require extra creativity on my part.
What makes the TA base projects good is their simple premise of clone/machine war over a millenia and the insanity that may have ensued.
the story is open ended enough to not lock anything down, I mean fuck, we are never told for sure that they were human.
There is a certain magic to allowing the player to fill in the blanks for the units and characters in the game. Let them have that headspace, after all the competitive players could give a shit about story and the casual guys just need a loose biscuit.
my favorite design tip of all time was from LevelLord, this is a paraphrase..
Always give the players a little more outside of the level, somwhere that looks cool and the player might want to go to but never let them.
it is important in story to leave huge gaping goatse style holes, it lets the player take his/her imagination and run wild.
all this unified unit design concept crap and story crap mucks up the game. Let the player have a taste of something really cool, let them know there there is more but NEVER give it to them. Better that they see it is there, feel the need to fill in that blank and become ensnared by that last bit of info.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
tbh i think the only person in the CA team who cares about the story atm is Sak
every1 else cares about the more important aspects like gameplay and new features and easing noob friendliness which are better goals imo at least atm
every1 else cares about the more important aspects like gameplay and new features and easing noob friendliness which are better goals imo at least atm
Re: Complete Annihilation News
saktoth seems to have appointed himself project lead/lead artist/lead story guy. it all puts a bad taste in my mouth.
if this isn't ta anymore saktoth, oh voice of all ca, please rename it.
if this isn't ta anymore saktoth, oh voice of all ca, please rename it.
- Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
Re: Complete Annihilation News
stories can be good, if you let the game and story caress eachother instead of having one tie up the other.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Meh. All a story should do is provide a backdrop. It shouldn't really interfere with gameplay.
Unified art and design is another thing entirely. It's what makes really great games great, imo. A game with art for a "side", where you can't tell what's one side and what's another at a glance just looks and feels very badly done.
That said, I think that Saktoth may be trying a bit too hard for perfect uniformity. When you have art specs for everything down to the shape of laser guns vs. plasma guns, you're denying yourself the opportunity to improvise a lot, and to improve standardization as you get stuff done.
Moreover, so much can be done for standardization with the skins that it's very important to look at that end, too. For example, Core (or whatever it's eventually called) would look downright AWESOME, if done in the same style TRO used for Talon- dark with alternating metal area- a style that feels menacing, metallic and slightly evil. I think that "Nova" or Arm or whatever should use a warm color or colors, "Core" should use a cool color or colors.
When everything's basically just silver with teamcolor, you lose huge opportunities to do things in a way that makes more sense at a distance- focusing too much on the geometry beyond a certain point is not productive, imo.
Oh, and lastly... this is all just my opinion, etc., etc., please don't start a flame war simply because I posted something constructive. I know it may seem like I just don't care about this effort of replacing the IP, but in fact I think it's great, and my comments are merely meant to reflect what I've learned from building P.U.R.E.
I believe that Saktoth's actually going the right direction, he just needs to think a little more broadly, with a stronger emphasis on finished work (that can be revisited later) instead of theoretical stuff, and more attention to speeding up process and getting more models done, rather than obsessing about geometry when a lot can be done on the skinning end.
If it would be considered helpful... as you guys all know, I have developed ways to get models mapped, skinned and in game in hours, not days or weeks, and I might find time to talk about that if I thought it would serve a purpose beyond serving as a feeding-ground for the art trolls around here
Unified art and design is another thing entirely. It's what makes really great games great, imo. A game with art for a "side", where you can't tell what's one side and what's another at a glance just looks and feels very badly done.
That said, I think that Saktoth may be trying a bit too hard for perfect uniformity. When you have art specs for everything down to the shape of laser guns vs. plasma guns, you're denying yourself the opportunity to improvise a lot, and to improve standardization as you get stuff done.
Moreover, so much can be done for standardization with the skins that it's very important to look at that end, too. For example, Core (or whatever it's eventually called) would look downright AWESOME, if done in the same style TRO used for Talon- dark with alternating metal area- a style that feels menacing, metallic and slightly evil. I think that "Nova" or Arm or whatever should use a warm color or colors, "Core" should use a cool color or colors.
When everything's basically just silver with teamcolor, you lose huge opportunities to do things in a way that makes more sense at a distance- focusing too much on the geometry beyond a certain point is not productive, imo.
Oh, and lastly... this is all just my opinion, etc., etc., please don't start a flame war simply because I posted something constructive. I know it may seem like I just don't care about this effort of replacing the IP, but in fact I think it's great, and my comments are merely meant to reflect what I've learned from building P.U.R.E.
I believe that Saktoth's actually going the right direction, he just needs to think a little more broadly, with a stronger emphasis on finished work (that can be revisited later) instead of theoretical stuff, and more attention to speeding up process and getting more models done, rather than obsessing about geometry when a lot can be done on the skinning end.
If it would be considered helpful... as you guys all know, I have developed ways to get models mapped, skinned and in game in hours, not days or weeks, and I might find time to talk about that if I thought it would serve a purpose beyond serving as a feeding-ground for the art trolls around here
Re: Complete Annihilation News
really argh? factions should have a "look," LIES AND BAULDERDASH! Yes, I understand that, it isn't a concept that I am unaware of... *insert snarky image macro relating how obvious it is*
The point is that saktoth decided all by himself that CA will have this particular look. It is good that he has taken the initiative. However, in a game with a very large variety of units, like TA which is CA's base, you need to be certain you allow for variety. I have said before that I LIKE the spherebot family. However, I still think that he is stifling creativity to such a point that no one will want to do any models for CA. And again, if the units are too similar with sooo many units in the game, it will become hard to tell them apart.
See people crying about EE. Even though it is resolved now, the units were a bit difficult to differentiate before.
The point is that saktoth decided all by himself that CA will have this particular look. It is good that he has taken the initiative. However, in a game with a very large variety of units, like TA which is CA's base, you need to be certain you allow for variety. I have said before that I LIKE the spherebot family. However, I still think that he is stifling creativity to such a point that no one will want to do any models for CA. And again, if the units are too similar with sooo many units in the game, it will become hard to tell them apart.
See people crying about EE. Even though it is resolved now, the units were a bit difficult to differentiate before.
- Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
Re: Complete Annihilation News
But theres still so much that can be done with the spheres!
Re: Complete Annihilation News
What would you think if I got 2 metal makers and put them next to each other and call it an adv metal maker? lame, right? same for the spherebot, I think there should be only one spherebot and that's the warrior one, please, use the peewee, it's so much cooler, if I'm right there is a redone peewee already availible.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
The name Peewee is already lame.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Names can be changed, I just don't like the 3 diffrent (if there arnt more already) spherebots
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- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Anyone who thinks the name 'peewee' is lame is totally missing the point.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
uugh, you are missing the point.Hoi wrote:What would you think if I got 2 metal makers and put them next to each other and call it an adv metal maker? lame, right? same for the spherebot, I think there should be only one spherebot and that's the warrior one, please, use the peewee, it's so much cooler, if I'm right there is a redone peewee already availible.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Peewee sounds like urine IMO. The Peewee model in normal TA looks like an Overmind unit from PURE or a silly little dwarf covered with an armored vest. I like those Spherebots, at least they are a change from a "silly little dwarf".
On the story part:
A story is completely useless. Unless you can make a standalone game with a campaign using Spring engine you have totally no need to have a story. Sure, making a story to make the mod interesting is alright, but how do you get people to access, read and enjoy the storyline? http://www.caspring.org is very hard to navigate. As smoth said, a story can limit your imagination for new units, in addition to balancing and model look issues.
1.Why do you want a story in the first place?
2.Do you need a story?
3.If you do, how do you get people to access, read and understand the story?
4.How does the story fit in to the game?
5.Popularity.
This also seem to affect Argh's PURE as well. Your story is interesting, but unless you make a campaign, it is near totally useless. People nowadays don't read stories. They just want to play a game. And if you managed to get the player into reading the story, let's say by annoying CA-style lua magic, will it affect the popularity of the game/mod? If a mod/game has this much of nonsense, and does not include a campaign, it will be called a advert-game or a "lousy-mod-game-with-nonsense-popping-up-here-and-there" or whatever.
Hopefully Argh's PURE has a campaign or mission system of some sort, since his Brief-O-Matic looks very well established, and shouldn't go to waste.
As for CA, well, you guys also should have a campaign to make the storyline meaningful. If possible, try to even add short video clips in between missions, maybe by some lua magic, or by building a complete game program, using Spring as its engine. The game could become successful, though it could interfere with copyrights. A successful example is the C&C series.
If this post could lead to the discussion of campaigns, it is at best be. At least it could direct us out of this storyline muddle. Now, do you want a story?
On the story part:
A story is completely useless. Unless you can make a standalone game with a campaign using Spring engine you have totally no need to have a story. Sure, making a story to make the mod interesting is alright, but how do you get people to access, read and enjoy the storyline? http://www.caspring.org is very hard to navigate. As smoth said, a story can limit your imagination for new units, in addition to balancing and model look issues.
1.Why do you want a story in the first place?
2.Do you need a story?
3.If you do, how do you get people to access, read and understand the story?
4.How does the story fit in to the game?
5.Popularity.
This also seem to affect Argh's PURE as well. Your story is interesting, but unless you make a campaign, it is near totally useless. People nowadays don't read stories. They just want to play a game. And if you managed to get the player into reading the story, let's say by annoying CA-style lua magic, will it affect the popularity of the game/mod? If a mod/game has this much of nonsense, and does not include a campaign, it will be called a advert-game or a "lousy-mod-game-with-nonsense-popping-up-here-and-there" or whatever.
Hopefully Argh's PURE has a campaign or mission system of some sort, since his Brief-O-Matic looks very well established, and shouldn't go to waste.
As for CA, well, you guys also should have a campaign to make the storyline meaningful. If possible, try to even add short video clips in between missions, maybe by some lua magic, or by building a complete game program, using Spring as its engine. The game could become successful, though it could interfere with copyrights. A successful example is the C&C series.
If this post could lead to the discussion of campaigns, it is at best be. At least it could direct us out of this storyline muddle. Now, do you want a story?
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- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Re: Complete Annihilation News
The Peewee model in normal TA looks like an Overmind unit from PURE
Seriously, TA is not meant to be taken seriously. The Peewees are meant to have silly names.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
Glaive is a rather nice name than Peewee.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
the little overmind bot is based on the peewee, dumbass. The name peewee doesn't have anything to do with urine, what are you 12?. It just means a little tiny guy, it is a *CUTE* name.
Re: Complete Annihilation News
While a glaive is a sharp edged polearm, and isn't actually that ickle.
On that note, can the size of the Glaive be pumped up just a tad? I know it's supposed to be a small rapid raider, but the detail of the model is just lost because it's basically tiny compared to the flea...
On that note, can the size of the Glaive be pumped up just a tad? I know it's supposed to be a small rapid raider, but the detail of the model is just lost because it's basically tiny compared to the flea...