Wee Spring

Doomweaver · Post by **Doomweaver** » 07 Jun 2005, 05:42

Why not just make the default camera zoom further from the ground? Then if you want a bigger map, you just make a bigger one, rather than having to fiddle with settings?

Gnomre · Post by **Gnomre** » 07 Jun 2005, 05:59

Because the current map format is inefficient and blows chunks, and no one really has a computer capable of making more than 32x32 in "Original Spring" terms. By making the units smaller instead, you effectively make a 32x32 map a 64x64 map.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 07 Jun 2005, 07:07

By resizing units like this, it doesn't only scale the horizontal plane twice as large, but it also scales the vertical plane twice as large, meaning that the bigger hills actually start to look like bigger hills.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 07 Jun 2005, 08:16

Yes, what Gnome and DM45 said.

The minispring solves a number of issues, the most important being the playability of terrain.
Before, terrain was more of an obstruction then part of your gameplay. There was no such thing as a mountain, or high ground, at most there was minor undulation. Technically, all those mountains are now twice as tall, and are really something to fight on and around.
At the same time, trees are also twice as tall. That means combat actually occurs under the treetops, and that trees can actually conceal units from view.

It also solves terrain deformation issues, as weapon explosions and area of effects are also half the size, meaning it takes twice as long to render the same area impassable.

Doomweaver · Post by **Doomweaver** » 07 Jun 2005, 09:21

But what do you do for units that already have a size if 1 tile?

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 07 Jun 2005, 09:35

Very few of those units exist. And if they want to be used they'll just have to be scaled up then down again.

Gnomre · Post by **Gnomre** » 07 Jun 2005, 10:14

I'm pretty sure Stormtroopers and other SWTA infantry are 1x1, and they still work fine...

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 07 Jun 2005, 10:21

The footprint has been kept; but the unit has been more or less shrunk.

Theoretically, if we managed to convince the SY's to adopt this as the default style, they would shrink the mininum footprint down.

Even if it isn't, Spring should be allowed to deal with footprints smaller than the current, because many mods use units smaller than Spring, particularly those dealing with human models.

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 07 Jun 2005, 18:54

I think that scale should be a mod-accessable property. It's looks awsome, but it's not the TA that we're all used to... personally I think with the greater freedom being provided with Spring, all Mods are going to need to be re-balanced. Those SW:TA:Spring shots, for example, the Storm troupers are almost as tall as the AT:STs or whatever they are... just need some tweaking in scale all around... wee-spring shouldn't have to be a separate executable, it should be defined in a tiny little mod file like the OTA config file.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 07 Jun 2005, 19:36

well, since its an engine change, its not really possible to make it a .ufo

zwzsg's ufo is just all the weapon/unit values of OTA plugged into a .ufo

as for this not being OTA..well, no, its Spring..which was different from OTA in its first incarnation (even with the ota patch)

I think TinySpring is more faithful to the gameplay of OTA, because it forces expansion even more (all the metal patches are now twice as spread out)

TinySpring for default size!

Gnomre · Post by **Gnomre** » 07 Jun 2005, 22:27

Actually, those are AT-PTs, which are indeed quite small. AT-STs and AT-ATs tower far over infantry:

http://wormhole.tauniverse.com/images/s ... a/atat.jpg
http://wormhole.tauniverse.com/images/s ... /atat2.jpg

See? The scale is pretty spot on

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 08 Jun 2005, 14:49

nice units but the blocktroopers i mean stormtroopers... still the rest of it is AMAZING!

BlackLiger · Post by **BlackLiger** » 08 Jun 2005, 15:03

I gotta say, i like miniTAspring

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 08 Jun 2005, 15:20

*nudges SY's*

Make it default!

shnorb · Post by **shnorb** » 08 Jun 2005, 16:27

at first i was sceptical, but after seeing those screens this just seems like the best idea ever...
of course while suggesting all these awesome ideas we have to decide what is an acceptable change, and what is not, in regards to maintaining the integrity of ota. but you also have to look at the fun-factor... imo things will look better, be more realistic, and mean that we have to actually develope more complex strategies when considering the terrain... what are we waiting for!

*nudges sy's again*

...

*and again*

munch · Post by **munch** » 08 Jun 2005, 21:38

I can understand the viewpoint that "if you like small, then produce a small mod". However, I think it would add a lot to the fun of the game and the replayability of maps to be able to set the scale of the game in the battle room.

See, I don't think you'd want it permanently small, because then you don't have any rushes (like somebody else said) - by the time your rush gets there your opponent has some smart defenses and a ton of troops - and rushes are a key part of TA. On the otherhand the whole idea of having a different scale game is a great idea - as is clear from the overwhlemingly posititive opinion in this thread....

So I say DO change the engine to allow scaling at the start of the game.

Just my opinion.

Cheers

Munch

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 08 Jun 2005, 22:01

"and rushes are a key part of TA"
FINALLY someone agrees with me! i'm fed up with STFU "no rush noobs" I enjoy rushing if my enemy doesn't like being rushed thats his problem

Also I want any 'nudges to SYs' be directed by ppl who HAVE played the mod. I haven't and i don't really want to. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but i'd rather ppl PLAY it before saying how good it is!

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 09 Jun 2005, 03:15

Originally posted by Munch
...to set the scale of the game in the battle room.

See, I don't think this is a particularly good idea, because it creates too much variability for map makers. If we set the scale as a constant from now, then map makers know that units will be a default of this size, and can plan for it accordingly.

See, I don't think you'd want it permanently small, because then you don't have any rushes (like somebody else said) - by the time your rush gets there your opponent has some smart defenses and a ton of troops - and rushes are a key part of TA. On the otherhand the whole idea of having a different scale game is a great idea - as is clear from the overwhlemingly posititive opinion in this thread....

I don't think this is true. You are just thinking in the wrong frame of mind. You are thinking "we are playing the same sized game, only with little units", when what you need to be thinking is: "I am playing a game that is now two times bigger, and the units are the same size."
Of course, technically we have shrunk the units; but in the gameplay effect, it is the rest of the game that has been made bigger.

To explain how this will not stop raiding (anyone who is against raiding is generally a poor TA player); if you play the favourite online map Painted Desert, you won't expect to be hit by a quick flash too early, simply because of the fact that the map is so big, you can just counter it with missile units.
Now, any map that was half the size of PD, off the top of my head, Gas Plant Plains (probably wrong, but its a name), you would expect to be rushed on.
Now, all miniSpring has done is made GPP the size of PD.
You just have to think in terms of "now I'm playing a PD sized map, so I should be in that sort of strategic frame of mind".
However, there are still many, many small maps that you would be able to play on.
Furthermore, the only maps where rushing and raiding are nonexistant are epic maps, which I never particularly liked anyhow. Even on Painted Desert, raiding is a very important role. If you watch any of the recorded Gnug games on PD, you'll see that flash raids are hardly neglected.
I hope that absolves some of your MiniSpring fears :)

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 09 Jun 2005, 03:32

I have been thinking that Mini-Spring would be cool, but for some naggling reson i dont fully support it. Maby its the fact that i like the big units! They look cool, and when a unit is smaller they your zoomed out camera would make them tiny pinpricks insted of units! Also when your zoomed in you cant command a battle as well. But i realy need to play it and see some UP CLOSE screeniy's and FAR AWAY screeniy's. Then i can fully decide.

But it is a COOL idea!

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 09 Jun 2005, 03:33

I have been thinking that Mini-Spring would be cool, but for some nagging reason I don├óÔé¼Ôäót fully support it. Maybe it├óÔé¼Ôäós the fact that I like the big units! They look cool, and when a unit is smaller they you├óÔé¼Ôäóre zoomed out camera would make them tiny pinpricks instead of units! Also when you├óÔé¼Ôäóre zoomed in you can├óÔé¼Ôäót command a battle as well. But i realy need to play it and see some UP CLOSE screeniy's and FAR AWAY screeniy's. Then i can fully decide.

But it is a COOL idea!

Edit: I don├óÔé¼Ôäót know how THAT happened

Spring RTS Engine

Wee Spring

Scale setting in battle room