Absolute Annihilation 2.3 Beta 2

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 05:23

phpbb sucks. v_v

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 31 Dec 2006, 05:23

*shrugs*

I wish I could live in a universe such as yours, that lets you close your eyes very tightly to make problems go away.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 05:25

So the deal's off?

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 31 Dec 2006, 05:26

Yeah, sorry. My ceiling just isnt wide enough.

*BOOM HEADSHOT*

jk mate sorry bit below the belt there :<

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 05:29

That's flattering, yet gross at the same time.

Not a fan of the ladies, eh Dragon?

Whoever's working on BA (it's a collaboration, right?), I realize they have good intentions and probably a fair bit more real-world gameplay experience than me, but good intentions and gameplay knowledge a good mod do not necessarily make. Actual modding experience comes in handy from time to time as well.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 31 Dec 2006, 06:08

Actual modding experience comes in handy if the mod needs to be "made". You've already "made" AA excellently, but "making content" and "balancing the content in relation to one another" is totally different, mate.

jackalope · Post by **jackalope** » 31 Dec 2006, 06:22

why do people keep mentioning "border patrols"??? as if that's something they'd like to see? I would just laugh if I saw a player putting units on border patrols around his base.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 31 Dec 2006, 06:33

border patrols r a must liek i no they wuld have hlepd me win n PWN in dis oen gaem but teh swarm units wer so OVERPOWERED and ghey i called him LAMEZORAZ but he still used dem

now dat i hav complaiend caydr will maek chaneg! he alwyas haz becuz my opinion is uesful an hlepful LOL!

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 31 Dec 2006, 08:24

I don't know what radar ranges are in BA, but it sounds like they're long enough to make dragon eyes and border patrols obsolete... you really think that's a good thing? To me it sounds like n00bifying all detection methods into one, kind of like putting anti-air and a torpedo launcher on goliaths.

Sorry, try again. There is a reason many people have asked you to actually try PLAYING BA, and this is an excellent example of it.

While Dragon made his point a little bluntly, he is correct: modding =! balancing. BA is developed mainly by two people: DayWalker and Noize. Noize mainly does the "modding," making things like the new lasers, the new GUI, fixing the commander script, etc. Day mainly does the balancing, with some help from Noize and other expert players:

[6:28:22 PM] <[S44]Felix_the_Cat> then again, i saw some number changes without apparent cause in the latest BA version too
[6:28:23 PM] <[WarC]NOiZE> well i am doing it
[6:28:28 PM] <[WarC]NOiZE> and day is telling me what to do

No one here is questioning your skills at modding, but it seems plainly obvious to most who have hung around here for a while that DayWalker + a few experts have been doing a better job balancing AA in a very short time than Caydr and all his AA forum threads. The fact is that one AA version or another became broken or boring as it became obvious that spamming one unit (or one kind) could win you the game at the highest level, against almost any strategy. Kbots, then gators, then flash, then weasels, and for a long time destroyers in the sea (that's as long as I've been around this time).

Caydr, I've played TA just as long as you have (I got the game in 1997), but I realize now that I really didn't know how to play this game until this latest time playing spring. I didn't know how little I knew about all the units and how to use them effectively at any given time until I actually got good at this game, to the point that I can beat most players with ease. The only way you get to that point is with experience of thousands of different real ingame situations (DayWaker has 3x as much ingame time as I do, and is a better player). Units' behavior in game is often a lot more subtle than the stats and scripts you tinker with. Things that quickly become obvious and exploitable to an expert player may never be apparent to you in single player testing, and won't show up in your equations. At the same time, the uses you design for units often won't be viable under the pressure of a real game situation.

Perhaps more importantly, though, someone how has played the game as long as Day has has a better idea of what is fun and what is boring than someone who has only equations, single player tests, and maybe a few online games under a pseudonym. They know what makes the game remain dynamic and interesting, and what stagnates it, or takes it so far from its roots that one must relearn how to play. How you expect to understand these subtleties, which are what make BA such a step forward, to be apparent from formulas and single player testing is beyond my understanding. The same experience that makes you skilled at the game makes you skilled at balancing a mod. But, it appears you will never understand this until you have played enough and learned enough to see it yourself (know I didn't, from some of my early comments in the AA threads). And, since you refuse to play and learn, I don't know what to say, beyond "have fun making your mod, I'll be playing BA."

The reason I and many others have been on your case about this so much is that we fundamentally think you're a good guy, and are grateful for all the work you put into AA. Without the balancing of the BA developers, however, AA was an uncut gem. It's the efforts of experienced players that are making it sparkle. There's also a desire not to see the AA community forked permanently, but the majority of the good players have come over to BA, so it probably isn't worth arguing any more. Those whose opinions are worth listening to (IMO) have already voted with their feet.

REVENGE · Post by **REVENGE** » 31 Dec 2006, 08:24

Now gentlemen, it is time.

Please proceed to carry out a: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flamewar

And please make sure everything ends up like THIS: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/screenshots/screen98.jpg

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 31 Dec 2006, 08:27

Please don't. I'd prefer that people rage quit silently, or whatever.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 31 Dec 2006, 13:06

that's crazy, the whole point of radar is seeing far without knowing exactly what it is and where it is whereas LOS is the ultimate detection method because you know everything, if you get los with dragons eyes and freaking border patrols why would you ever even dream of building radar?

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 31 Dec 2006, 15:41

i care about AA being developed as long as it attract noobs.

Noobs in AA and good ones in BA is PERFECT world. I like it.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 16:34

By border patrols... I don't mean 30 goliaths rolling around, being easy targets. I meant more like that fighter screen everyone's always saying you should have, since they're the most effective form of air defence. Surely you have them "patrolling" your "borders", do you not? The only alternative is to have them sitting somewhere uselessly, am I right? Air units, especially fighters and dedicated scouts, have very good LoS.

The TA role of radar and the AA role of radar are different. For one, in OTA it was impossible to have units with LoS longer than 400ish unless you used a SY hack that I included in AA.

After I used that hack, I realized that radar towers, as they were, were typically only built for the purpose of radar. That's logical, but I thought they could be used to better advantage as watch towers - long LoS, with long radar. So they would not only be built for the purpose of detecting enemies as they approach, but could also be used to assist with targeting. More importantly, it would mean that there would be an additional priority target and a little more tactical thinking - the attacking player must decide, do I want to destroy the LLTs, or rush past them and kill the radar tower, allowing my longer-ranged units to kill the LLTs with less difficulty?

But this presented a problem. Why would the attacker prioritize the radar tower if the defender could easily build like 20 of them for very little cost and in very little time? So I decided to increase the energy cost a fair bit, to make them a little more difficult to spam in the early game.

...Yes, I've been known to think logically from time to time as well.

Now, is this no longer the ideal solution? Should radar be cheapened and given longer range to make all of the above null? Do what you like with BA of course, but I think AA's radars will remain as they are for the time being.

AA might not be as carefully refined by a l33t-pr0 g4m3r, but there's a lot of this kind of thing that is not clearly visible. You see it unconsciously and do as I intended when you play AA, because it seems to you to be the logical course of action. When you fork off from it and start changing things to be the way you think they ought to be with no thought to the implications, all my planning goes to nothing.

This kind of brute force balancing - changing values because you find that they are inconvenient - will probably result in a game that is appreciated by many who enjoy things being plain and simple, but will destroy the underlying game mechanics that are not readily apparent to someone who has never modded before.

When people tell me that BA is more "stable" than AA, because things aren't getting changed as much, I'm a bit confused. How are these whopping arbitrary 30% and greater increases/decreases a slow and steady approach? 30% lower costs on doomsday while giving it 11% more HP?

Entirely removing the destroyer's weapon arcs, which have been one of the best and most important changes to AA's still-WIP naval balance? Entirely removing solar energy costs while increasing the metal maker metal:energy ratio?! I could write a whole page on that last one alone, and I haven't even scratched the surface of absurd things I've read in the BA changelog. No, I have NOT implemented all BA's changes in AA 2.3, thank you.

Solars must cost energy to inhibit exponential growth of the metal maker economy. When you start making energy free, and therefore metal also free, you've completely borked the entire game. You're toying around with the most basic of TA's resourcing units, around which the entire game has been built. For economy to so easily exponentially increase... it just boggles my mind. I... I just can't even begin to make a proper argument, I have no idea where to start. No, that's... I can't even begin. It is beyond my english comprehension to figure out a way to properly place emphasis on how ridiculous that is from a balance standpoint. Justifying it by saying it speeds up the game.... well... uh, yeah, I should hope so. You've just put pure alcohol in a viper's gas tank.

No, I'm not a hardcore gamer with more frags than khan. I'm just a guy who enjoys making his mod in the little bit of free time he has to give. It's my hobby, and I'm not giving it up... I like working on AA. Best of luck with BA. I hope that it does not devolve into the logical conclusion of this sort of "brute force" approach - RPS.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 31 Dec 2006, 16:49

how are fighter patrols made useless by radar then?

ok ill edit mine to

so radars would be a good target when they're useless and nobody builds em? I reckon that defeats your plan a whole bit more.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 17:05

Read whole post

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 31 Dec 2006, 17:19

radar detects cloaked units (in XTA at least)

Day · Post by **Day** » 31 Dec 2006, 17:19

yay im a pr0 1337 g4m3r

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 31 Dec 2006, 17:24

pintle wrote:radar detects cloaked units (in XTA at least)

Thereby making sneak attacks more difficult and scouting purposeless. AA's not about rushing massive number of units together and watching the fireworks. There are units in this mod that don't even have weapons, and they're the most dangerous.

Don't anyone try to turn this into a flame war. I want a proper discussion here. If I see any swearing or personal attacks I'll whine at a moderator until he deletes it

so radars would be a good target when they're useless and nobody builds em? I reckon that defeats your plan a whole bit more.

If you don't build radar, you have crap targetting ability on your front line, and you are either playing against an idiot or are about to lose the game. I haven't played in the last couple days, but hitting your target is fairly important IIRC.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 31 Dec 2006, 17:36

radar doesn't help a bit if you use patrols and cameras as your earlier post suggested

also I remember the reason I was annoyed with the 2.23 radar was especially that it didn't actually let you see anything your defenses can't unless you build them right up front and make a new one every time you advance an inch.

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Absolute Annihilation 2.3 Beta 2