Need I remind you of the 2.11 tournament final that was Arm V Core on Green Comet? It turned into a Gator VS Flash spam contest. The Core player won handily, simply because his units could win even against a superior-cost force of Flashes and neither could afford to upgrade.BigSteve wrote:Thats wrong im afraid, the difference between the flash and insti and many of the other arm and core units in 2.11 was never enough to put people off playing play as arm, theres always been slighty more arm players than core. On a vehicle map like comet youd tend go core but arm were more than adequate to get by imo.
Absolute Annihilation 2.23
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yes but if youd listen to what im saying.... we have the same situation now, but even more so, with arm winning over core in nearly every department, yeah arm vehicles were weaker than cores in 2.11, but their kbots more than made up for that fact.
Now arm vehicles are easily if not more than a match for core at levels 1 and 2, arm bots totally wipe the floor with core kbots at level2, im not saying you wont win playing core but against a good arm player it'll be more difficult than it should be I feel.
Im not saying put the flash back to 2.11 but it needs a nerf, along with the panther - it can take bulldogs and reapers metal for metal and just see what a bunch of em do to a brawler/ rapier swarm, also id say penetartor hp and possibly the bulldog range need a look at.
Now arm vehicles are easily if not more than a match for core at levels 1 and 2, arm bots totally wipe the floor with core kbots at level2, im not saying you wont win playing core but against a good arm player it'll be more difficult than it should be I feel.
Im not saying put the flash back to 2.11 but it needs a nerf, along with the panther - it can take bulldogs and reapers metal for metal and just see what a bunch of em do to a brawler/ rapier swarm, also id say penetartor hp and possibly the bulldog range need a look at.
Need I remind you of the next tournament finals, which turned into another Arm V Core match-up with KBots? The Core player won very nearly without losing a single KBot by using micro'd AKs.BigSteve wrote:yeah arm vehicles were weaker than cores in 2.11, but their kbots more than made up for that fact.
yeah that was a one off, I watched that, a few hammers and or llts would have stopped that from happening. But I was talking more along the lines of l2 tbh.
Anyway as I said above, what happened then isnt really the issue is it.
Id rather you comment on my ideas about the current balance, because to put it simply. The sides arent balanced. They need tweaking.
READ FTW!!
Anyway as I said above, what happened then isnt really the issue is it.
Id rather you comment on my ideas about the current balance, because to put it simply. The sides arent balanced. They need tweaking.
READ FTW!!
Last edited by BigSteve on 25 Oct 2006, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
So should core have the gators buffed relative to flashes? Or should they have some other unit buffed, so that arm is better at fast raiding/rushing stuff and core is better and siege warfare with artillery or something.
Played core last night trying cans and dominators (or whatever the level 2 rocket kbot is called). Dominators seem to really lack as they are fragile and have a hard time outranging even a hlt. They do have a longer range on paper but when I tried to whack a line of HLTs and LLTs with a couple they seemed to come under laser fire anyway. Whether I targeted the wrong one first, or whether they just try and move closer than max range for whatever reason I'm not sure.
The range of the vehcile rocket launcher is much longer. When I played on comet catcher (2 vs 2 - all experienced players going core vehicles) I was able to use them effectively to shell a defensive line. Although they hadn't done any significant damage by the time my ally managed to storm the other opponent with goliaths and then switch attention to my direct opponent who self-d'd in a hopeless position.
Would it make sense to buff the range of the dominator and/or the morty so that they are comparable to the vehicle equivelants? Even if other stats need to be nerfed to make them balanced.
Played core last night trying cans and dominators (or whatever the level 2 rocket kbot is called). Dominators seem to really lack as they are fragile and have a hard time outranging even a hlt. They do have a longer range on paper but when I tried to whack a line of HLTs and LLTs with a couple they seemed to come under laser fire anyway. Whether I targeted the wrong one first, or whether they just try and move closer than max range for whatever reason I'm not sure.
The range of the vehcile rocket launcher is much longer. When I played on comet catcher (2 vs 2 - all experienced players going core vehicles) I was able to use them effectively to shell a defensive line. Although they hadn't done any significant damage by the time my ally managed to storm the other opponent with goliaths and then switch attention to my direct opponent who self-d'd in a hopeless position.
Would it make sense to buff the range of the dominator and/or the morty so that they are comparable to the vehicle equivelants? Even if other stats need to be nerfed to make them balanced.
If I may interject into this long and somewhat one-sided discussion...
Every game I've played in 2.23 has been majority Core, thus far, save one. I see no significant power differential between the sides in my own experience, though I muse contend that Core is actually easier to play at this point in general, due to a more... heavy-handed design philosophy. The Instigator seems, from what I have observed, for once more effective than the Flash.
Every game I've played in 2.23 has been majority Core, thus far, save one. I see no significant power differential between the sides in my own experience, though I muse contend that Core is actually easier to play at this point in general, due to a more... heavy-handed design philosophy. The Instigator seems, from what I have observed, for once more effective than the Flash.
Ok I made a quick demo, insti vs flash, this seemed to me the fairest way to test them, if there are better ways let me know and I'll try again.
Flash -- 109 metal, 1014 energy, 1744 Buildtime, Health 610
Insti -- 118 metal, 1142 energy, 1761 Buildtime, Health 750
Flash beat insti on each occasion, the tanks were placed opposite each other, with turrets facing, (insti takes longer to turn and fire than the flash I think) then given to the other team.
just to note the flash also has a higher top speed than the instigator and also higher turret turn rate I think.
This test doesnt really take the instis slightly longer range into account, but ive retested as best i can on my own and the results end up the same.
compare the stats and the results in the demo, to me the flash and instii dont seem balanced.
ps sorry bout the crap hosting site, you can get the download a little way down the page, its a little hard to see sometimes ><
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b40a5e/
Flash -- 109 metal, 1014 energy, 1744 Buildtime, Health 610
Insti -- 118 metal, 1142 energy, 1761 Buildtime, Health 750
Flash beat insti on each occasion, the tanks were placed opposite each other, with turrets facing, (insti takes longer to turn and fire than the flash I think) then given to the other team.
just to note the flash also has a higher top speed than the instigator and also higher turret turn rate I think.
This test doesnt really take the instis slightly longer range into account, but ive retested as best i can on my own and the results end up the same.
compare the stats and the results in the demo, to me the flash and instii dont seem balanced.
ps sorry bout the crap hosting site, you can get the download a little way down the page, its a little hard to see sometimes ><
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b40a5e/
Last edited by BigSteve on 25 Oct 2006, 03:30, edited 2 times in total.
Another quick test, shows panther vs reaper
Panther 327 metal, 7702 energy 6924 buildtime, health 1175
Reaper 693 metal, 13348 energy 15930 buildtime health 3900
panthers take out reapers no problem in equal metal costs, (slightly less metal overall for panther actaully) plus the panther has less than half the cost in e and less than half the buildtime. Panther has a much higher top speed too. And aa.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/8ce5ba/
panthers also kill their equivalent metal cost in goliaths, I sat 3 in front of a golly and 1 damaged panther left over, bunched together they die almost killing the golly, spread around to take advantage of it slow turret they eat it for breakfast. ( not shown here, its on another replay but its late and im off to bed so try it yerself I suppose)
Panther 327 metal, 7702 energy 6924 buildtime, health 1175
Reaper 693 metal, 13348 energy 15930 buildtime health 3900
panthers take out reapers no problem in equal metal costs, (slightly less metal overall for panther actaully) plus the panther has less than half the cost in e and less than half the buildtime. Panther has a much higher top speed too. And aa.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/8ce5ba/
panthers also kill their equivalent metal cost in goliaths, I sat 3 in front of a golly and 1 damaged panther left over, bunched together they die almost killing the golly, spread around to take advantage of it slow turret they eat it for breakfast. ( not shown here, its on another replay but its late and im off to bed so try it yerself I suppose)
I beg to differ.
The testing i did ruled in favor for Core. (at level 2 that is... flashes kill gators, but only sligtly)
Offcourse, i used sevral tanks and one tank squad attacking the other, since that's the most realistic one man can do.
http://replays.unknown-files.net/replay.php?id=89
The testing i did ruled in favor for Core. (at level 2 that is... flashes kill gators, but only sligtly)
Offcourse, i used sevral tanks and one tank squad attacking the other, since that's the most realistic one man can do.
http://replays.unknown-files.net/replay.php?id=89
Last edited by Kixxe on 25 Oct 2006, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.
On 2.11 flashes vs instigator was really unbalanced, instigators OWNED, yes OWNED flashes and 95% I play against were core and those other 5% were nubs.Egarwaen wrote:Need I remind you of the 2.11 tournament final that was Arm V Core on Green Comet? It turned into a Gator VS Flash spam contest. The Core player won handily, simply because his units could win even against a superior-cost force of Flashes and neither could afford to upgrade.BigSteve wrote:Thats wrong im afraid, the difference between the flash and insti and many of the other arm and core units in 2.11 was never enough to put people off playing play as arm, theres always been slighty more arm players than core. On a vehicle map like comet youd tend go core but arm were more than adequate to get by imo.
edit: readed further, 2.23 gator vs flash is much much much much much much much much much much more balanced now.
Read my posts please hellspawn.
I know its more balanced now, im not stupid. But as ive said, my whole point is that its still not balanced is it?
The flash beats the insti everytime, it costs less e, m and buildtime and its faster.
/me bangs head against brickwall
@kixxe intresting panther results, although 1 of the tests you didnt move the panthers into firing range but maybe we should test them with micro, I will pm you when youre on and we could test them? Im off to Canada tomorrow for a while though so not sure if I'll get the chance
btw im not a core player trying to get balance back in cores favour, 75% games I play arm, I just want the mod to be as balanced is possible ^^
I know its more balanced now, im not stupid. But as ive said, my whole point is that its still not balanced is it?
The flash beats the insti everytime, it costs less e, m and buildtime and its faster.
/me bangs head against brickwall
@kixxe intresting panther results, although 1 of the tests you didnt move the panthers into firing range but maybe we should test them with micro, I will pm you when youre on and we could test them? Im off to Canada tomorrow for a while though so not sure if I'll get the chance
btw im not a core player trying to get balance back in cores favour, 75% games I play arm, I just want the mod to be as balanced is possible ^^
do you people actually read what steve says?
for the record i did a test 20 brawlers vs 18 panthers and guess what
the panthers killed 15 brawlers before going down.. their not even AA
panther vs bulldogs.. if the bulldogs arent running away from panthers they get killed so fast its scary.. if their running away they still get owned
just to clear that up D: goliath comes close to compete with panthers but not quite <_<
about flashes and gators.. were almost there just i think the flash needs less health to make up for his speed and manueverebility currently instigators get beat hands down in any real.. and arms t2 is better in every way, thats not right is it.
if you disagree prove me otherwise <,<
for the record i did a test 20 brawlers vs 18 panthers and guess what
the panthers killed 15 brawlers before going down.. their not even AA
panther vs bulldogs.. if the bulldogs arent running away from panthers they get killed so fast its scary.. if their running away they still get owned
just to clear that up D: goliath comes close to compete with panthers but not quite <_<
about flashes and gators.. were almost there just i think the flash needs less health to make up for his speed and manueverebility currently instigators get beat hands down in any real.. and arms t2 is better in every way, thats not right is it.
if you disagree prove me otherwise <,<
Erm, you do realise your units are standing still?! Have you ever seen a flash vs inst fight where both are standing still?. The flash is far less accurate against moving targets and has lower range.BigSteve wrote:Ok I made a quick demo, insti vs flash, this seemed to me the fairest way to test them, if there are better ways let me know and I'll try again.
Flash -- 109 metal, 1014 energy, 1744 Buildtime, Health 610
Insti -- 118 metal, 1142 energy, 1761 Buildtime, Health 750
Flash beat insti on each occasion, the tanks were placed opposite each other, with turrets facing, (insti takes longer to turn and fire than the flash I think) then given to the other team.
just to note the flash also has a higher top speed than the instigator and also higher turret turn rate I think.
This test doesnt really take the instis slightly longer range into account, but ive retested as best i can on my own and the results end up the same.
compare the stats and the results in the demo, to me the flash and instii dont seem balanced.
ps sorry bout the crap hosting site, you can get the download a little way down the page, its a little hard to see sometimes ><
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b40a5e/
Your test just tested HP & DPS. Its just as useless as testing a pewee and a zipper standing still; pewee wins even though it's less than 1/3 of the cost. Therefore according to your standards, the pewee needs a massive nerf!
No I didnt realise they were standing still I thought they were moving the entire time.
And no ive never seen a moving flash and instigator battle, Ive never actually played this mod.
sigh, as I mentioned the insti has a slightly higher range, but it doesnt make a difference, the flash still comes out on top, its faster, smaller, more manauverable, has higher turret turn rate, higher dps, costs less metal, less energy and has a smaller build time.
As for the flash being more inaccurate against smaller target then Ive not seen it except when attacking a flea, the insti is big enough so the flashes "supposed" innacuracy doesnt make any difference atall.
Are you gonna keep making me repeat myself over and over again? or are you gonna read some posts and/or try the tanks yourself and stop talking to me like im an idiot?
And btw a zipper easily has the speed, turn rate, range and manauverablity to keep away from a peewee and kill it. An instigator cant do this with regards to a flash even though it costs more in every respect, but then if youd tested it or played some games, youd already know this. Moron.
And no ive never seen a moving flash and instigator battle, Ive never actually played this mod.
sigh, as I mentioned the insti has a slightly higher range, but it doesnt make a difference, the flash still comes out on top, its faster, smaller, more manauverable, has higher turret turn rate, higher dps, costs less metal, less energy and has a smaller build time.
As for the flash being more inaccurate against smaller target then Ive not seen it except when attacking a flea, the insti is big enough so the flashes "supposed" innacuracy doesnt make any difference atall.
Are you gonna keep making me repeat myself over and over again? or are you gonna read some posts and/or try the tanks yourself and stop talking to me like im an idiot?
And btw a zipper easily has the speed, turn rate, range and manauverablity to keep away from a peewee and kill it. An instigator cant do this with regards to a flash even though it costs more in every respect, but then if youd tested it or played some games, youd already know this. Moron.
Re: core level 2 kbots
I don't think the core lvl2 kbots are bad, you just need the right combination of forces.
Take dominators for instance. They don't have a huge range and they are weak, consequently you cannot bombard defenses as if they were the rocket trucks. However, if used behind a wall of cans/pyro in the front and supported by a few morty's, a volly of 7-10 rockets can be used to take out point defense or other critical structures. Furthermore, they are pretty quick and manuverable, so if things get ugly, they can get out quick. If you wan't to make them 'better' I wouldn't argue though :)
Core also has the special builder bot (forgot the name). Being able to make a jammer tower, nano-tower, and a line of cans on the front line is very effective, and lets your adv. kbot lab mass morty's/dominators.
Also, the SUMO is an a terribly fearsome unit. Its basically a stripped down lvl3 kbot that you can build in tier 2. I think core is just fine at lvl 2 kbots.
On a different note, I really feel like there are too many rediculous anti-air units in the game. Personally, I think the best defense against bombers/gunships SHOULD be air-2-air fighters or stealth fighters. Gone are the days of using planes to guard your attack forces, since there are now adv. missile kbots (rediculously good), impossible to kill Flak trucks, and the AA ships are insane.
I just think that AA defenses should be generally weak to fend off lvl1 planes early on, and let the static flak guns handle point defense of critical sites. Plane patrols should constitute the major air defense.
In OTA (not that this is OTA) you needed both flak AND fighters to effectively protect you from an air raid of ANY size. Now, a few units smattered around the map effectively takes air out of the mid-game.
Its a little "chicken-and-egg" right now, where mixed land/air or sea/air forces don't really work because land-sea air defenses are too good. You can't support an offense very well with planes because they die immediately, and if the opponent has the right land/sea defenses, you'll be hard pressed to break the line WITHOUT air support. This situation pushes the game through tier 2 too quickly and leaves players with birthas/super-units/nukes/tacs/etc... as the only way to move forward. It kills the depth of mid-game.
I don't think the core lvl2 kbots are bad, you just need the right combination of forces.
Take dominators for instance. They don't have a huge range and they are weak, consequently you cannot bombard defenses as if they were the rocket trucks. However, if used behind a wall of cans/pyro in the front and supported by a few morty's, a volly of 7-10 rockets can be used to take out point defense or other critical structures. Furthermore, they are pretty quick and manuverable, so if things get ugly, they can get out quick. If you wan't to make them 'better' I wouldn't argue though :)
Core also has the special builder bot (forgot the name). Being able to make a jammer tower, nano-tower, and a line of cans on the front line is very effective, and lets your adv. kbot lab mass morty's/dominators.
Also, the SUMO is an a terribly fearsome unit. Its basically a stripped down lvl3 kbot that you can build in tier 2. I think core is just fine at lvl 2 kbots.
On a different note, I really feel like there are too many rediculous anti-air units in the game. Personally, I think the best defense against bombers/gunships SHOULD be air-2-air fighters or stealth fighters. Gone are the days of using planes to guard your attack forces, since there are now adv. missile kbots (rediculously good), impossible to kill Flak trucks, and the AA ships are insane.
I just think that AA defenses should be generally weak to fend off lvl1 planes early on, and let the static flak guns handle point defense of critical sites. Plane patrols should constitute the major air defense.
In OTA (not that this is OTA) you needed both flak AND fighters to effectively protect you from an air raid of ANY size. Now, a few units smattered around the map effectively takes air out of the mid-game.
Its a little "chicken-and-egg" right now, where mixed land/air or sea/air forces don't really work because land-sea air defenses are too good. You can't support an offense very well with planes because they die immediately, and if the opponent has the right land/sea defenses, you'll be hard pressed to break the line WITHOUT air support. This situation pushes the game through tier 2 too quickly and leaves players with birthas/super-units/nukes/tacs/etc... as the only way to move forward. It kills the depth of mid-game.
Ok, I did my own quick test of flashes vs instigators. Now i know its not exactly the most accurate test but iv'e tried to reflect the fact that they are moving in battle (unlike BigSteve's "test"). Here is the replay : http://www.filefactory.com/file/59ceff/
Basically what happens is that Inst. own Flashes, with the margin diff getting bigger and bigger the more units are involved (e.g. 20v20, inst win with 12 left!!!)
If anything, from this replay I would say that Flashes are still underpowered, but the fact that they are slightly faster and cheaper will probably equal it out.
Whos the moron now, BigSteve?
Basically what happens is that Inst. own Flashes, with the margin diff getting bigger and bigger the more units are involved (e.g. 20v20, inst win with 12 left!!!)
If anything, from this replay I would say that Flashes are still underpowered, but the fact that they are slightly faster and cheaper will probably equal it out.
Whos the moron now, BigSteve?