Stumpy vs Raider is obviously messed up, I must've reversed their figures or something. Fixing now.
Panther seems to have been left out of serious balance consideration for too long, I'll fix that up.
The missile ship is something that really puzzles me too. I'm not sure what role exactly cavedog intended it to fill. It originally had a much shorter range too... so what would it possibly be good for?
Maybe I could try making it into something like...
Cheaper alternative to battleship for land and structure attack. Larger AoE, very high damage, slow firing rate.
Absolute Annihilation 2.23
Moderator: Moderators
-
Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
*gunther voice* That'l be adequate.Caydr wrote: Cheaper alternative to battleship for land and structure attack. Larger AoE, very high damage, slow firing rate.
Just don't nerf the range too much, keep it 50/75 units more then an ambusher/toaster.
As soon as someone gets a guardian L1 Sea attacks become effictively null due to 3x dmg from MRPCs vs Ships.
I love the panther verry much, but I do belive that it really sucks at it's current form.
It can't even OUTRANGE an LLT, it does 167 damage too, only 20ish higher then a rocko (DPS not included.) - which is pathathic if you're going to attack some LLTs.
3 LLTs - Costing less then a panther, will chop up a panther in no time.
Doesn't really make sense...
It's AA missiles are useless as well, too low RoF and DMG to be helpful.
I think an acceleration, brake rate, LOS buff and a a decrease of cost would be in order.
It's weapon *COULD* use some more range though.
Eh, I'm no expert on balance - do as you see fit ;P.
I like it as it is tbh - a long range, low(ish) DPS pinpoint attack seige ship - as has been mentioned, it somewhat makes up for the removal of the bertha ship
don't forget the AA missiles too. Actually, maybe you could make its Vlaunch missiles track like kroggy's do and then it could target gunships and fast moving scouts etc which ballistic weapons have trouble targetting...
hmm, a long range anti-scoutship/AA role might work quite well tbh, somewhat corresponds to RL missile cruisers too...
could even give it a 'shield' (anti-missile missiles) too - ie an anti missile/torpedobomb pointdefence for the fleet - making it more of a fleet support ship...
EDIT: *thinking out loud*
in fact, thinking about real missile cruisers, you could give it a wide variety of 'ammo' types - the current AA missile, the tracking longrange anti-scout/hovercraft vlaunch, the point-defence anti-missile missile (shield), and maybe a stockpiling Vlaunch 'cruise' missile somewhat equivalent to the tacnuke launchers on land...heck, you could even pass over the antinuke function from the carrier, which would make much more sense tbh
Obviously much of this stuff is a huge buff and would need to be costed accordingly, and I'm not suggesting all of this be implemented, but there are certainly some new roles suggested - support/fleet defence/antinuke/long range missile strikes etc
don't forget the AA missiles too. Actually, maybe you could make its Vlaunch missiles track like kroggy's do and then it could target gunships and fast moving scouts etc which ballistic weapons have trouble targetting...
hmm, a long range anti-scoutship/AA role might work quite well tbh, somewhat corresponds to RL missile cruisers too...
could even give it a 'shield' (anti-missile missiles) too - ie an anti missile/torpedobomb pointdefence for the fleet - making it more of a fleet support ship...
EDIT: *thinking out loud*
in fact, thinking about real missile cruisers, you could give it a wide variety of 'ammo' types - the current AA missile, the tracking longrange anti-scout/hovercraft vlaunch, the point-defence anti-missile missile (shield), and maybe a stockpiling Vlaunch 'cruise' missile somewhat equivalent to the tacnuke launchers on land...heck, you could even pass over the antinuke function from the carrier, which would make much more sense tbh
Obviously much of this stuff is a huge buff and would need to be costed accordingly, and I'm not suggesting all of this be implemented, but there are certainly some new roles suggested - support/fleet defence/antinuke/long range missile strikes etc
Next version's up, I'm not posting about it until 6 PM though (5 hours 30 minutes from this post), so if you find anything horribly wrong in that time please post about it and I'll get it fixed.
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfil ... _id=457192
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfil ... _id=457192
The Core one was good because it gave you a floating radar. Cavedog's artillery was always kind of bizarre, though. Merls and Diplomats had similarly bizarre stats, IIRC.Caydr wrote:The missile ship is something that really puzzles me too. I'm not sure what role exactly cavedog intended it to fill. It originally had a much shorter range too... so what would it possibly be good for?
As for the Panther, didn't it originally have an unguided rocket and a lightning cannon instead of an AA missile and a lightning cannon?
is the flea beamtime meant to be so high or it's a typo? 
EDIT: shield aren't working too. and the Gimp is not in the amphibious complex buildmenu ( don't know if it's a bug or a balance decision )
EDIT: shield aren't working too. and the Gimp is not in the amphibious complex buildmenu ( don't know if it's a bug or a balance decision )
Last edited by Helix on 20 Oct 2006, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
Meh all looks pretty good caydr, i only can't find any use for those seismic things, either their price is WAY to high, or their range is WAY too short.
I would prefer a much longer range like half that of a bertha or something, so you can really spot enemy army's on the move...
Do those seismic events show up on the minimap?
For a next version maybe add custom uniticons, like triangles for planes circles for kbots/tanks squares for buildings, and a triangle the otherway around for ships..... and maybe some special one for commander/krogoth.
I would prefer a much longer range like half that of a bertha or something, so you can really spot enemy army's on the move...
Do those seismic events show up on the minimap?
For a next version maybe add custom uniticons, like triangles for planes circles for kbots/tanks squares for buildings, and a triangle the otherway around for ships..... and maybe some special one for commander/krogoth.
Er, that would be stupid being able to see all their units that are moving.. defies the whole point of strategically placed radar and spy bots!NOiZE wrote:Meh all looks pretty good caydr, i only can't find any use for those seismic things, either their price is WAY to high, or their range is WAY too short.
I would prefer a much longer range like half that of a bertha or something, so you can really spot enemy army's on the move...
Do those seismic events show up on the minimap?
For a next version maybe add custom uniticons, like triangles for planes circles for kbots/tanks squares for buildings, and a triangle the otherway around for ships..... and maybe some special one for commander/krogoth.
They are there to spot cloakable units, and they do that extremely well...
Seisic detectors are not for general-purpose detection, they're for finding stealth units like spies in your midst. And they're only like 1700 metal... seems like a lot until you realize that a spy can self-d itself and disable critical infrastructure for 45 seconds if it's not found first.
~~~
Flea beamtime was a typo, fixed, thanks.
~~~~
Going to give rocket cruisers a radar, I think... just for kicks...
~~~~~
They already HAVE radar! Who said that!? You better watch your ass...
~~~~~~
Cruise missile ships now have a range of 1250, I hope that's enough. That's down from 1550, IIRC. Battleships have 1300 range, but cost a lot more.
~~~
Flea beamtime was a typo, fixed, thanks.
~~~~
Going to give rocket cruisers a radar, I think... just for kicks...
~~~~~
They already HAVE radar! Who said that!? You better watch your ass...
~~~~~~
Cruise missile ships now have a range of 1250, I hope that's enough. That's down from 1550, IIRC. Battleships have 1300 range, but cost a lot more.
Hmm, I've not had difficulty taking out MRPCs with destroyers... Missile ships should be high damage, long range, with a relatively slow firing rate. They should also be very vulnerable to being bombed or attacked with ships.Foxomaniac wrote:*gunther voice* That'l be adequate.Caydr wrote: Cheaper alternative to battleship for land and structure attack. Larger AoE, very high damage, slow firing rate.
Just don't nerf the range too much, keep it 50/75 units more then an ambusher/toaster.
As soon as someone gets a guardian L1 Sea attacks become effictively null due to 3x dmg from MRPCs vs Ships.
An hour early! 2.23 is now ready:
Still working on that unit guide. I'd forgotten how hard it was to get it just the way I wanted it.
http://aaspring.tk2.22 --> 2.23
Leveler HP, range, speed, turnrate boosted, metal cost reduced,
reload time decreased
Seismic detector metal cost reduced, energy cost increased,
detection readius increased
Error in spy FBI files fixed; spies now self-destruct with a 45
second paralyzing explosion, but if destroyed by other means
expode with a 15 second paralyzing explosion
Flea laser beamtime fixed
Cruise missile ships now have radar
2.21 --> 2.22
Fixed Manticore buildpic
Reduced anti-air kbot HP by 200 (arm), 250 (core)
Annihilator health bar fixed, properly this time
Core HLT is now as tall as arm HLT
Annihilator turret height increased
Stumpy/Raider shot velocity increased by 20
Gremlin, Stumpy, Sharpshooter, Skuttle seismic ping size fixed
Commando weapon AoE halved
Goliath health increased by 500, weapon AoE increased to 256 (192)
Added the new units to armor table
Boosted bantha, penetrator BLoD strength
Increased penetrator range, decreased sharpshooter range
Juggernaut restore_after_delay script adjusted, adding its new
turrets
All units now have a small seismic signature, spies and other
stealthy/cloakable units have a larger one
Adjusted sonar and sight distances for torpedo launchers and L1
sonar stations
Flash, Peewee reload time reduced to 0.3 (0.31)
Zipper reload time increased to 1.5 (1.1), damage per shot
increased to 15 (10), shots per burst increased to 6 (5)
Flash speed increased slightly, instigator speed reduced slightly
Peewee speed, HP increased, AK speed increased slightly, HP
decreased slightly
Flash, instigator HP reduced by 20, energy cost increased by 100
Penetrator speed reduced by 0.118, HP boosted by 500
Sniper speed increased by 0.04, metal cost reduced by 40, energy
cost reduced by 3000, HP reduced by 120
Sniper firing bug fixed
Halberd energy cost decreased
Hovercraft movement speed globally increased by 10%
Fatboy metal cost decreased by 700, AoE increased to 256 (240)
Liche reload time increased to 20 (8)
Fighter damage generally rebalanced
Fixed impulse on anti-air missiles
Bombs (...from a bomber) now have 0.5 impulse (0.123)
Banisher, Fatboy impulse set to 0.6 (0.123)
Archangel, Manticore missile firepower reduced by about 20%
Leveler impulsefactor increased to 0.9 (0.5)
Janus turnrate increased, rockets set to fire with an arc and
have limited tracking now, AoE increased to 128 (96)
Fixed krogoth primary weapon typo and some corpse values
(thanks to TradeMark)
Removed unit "arrived" sounds (irritating!)
Increase standard impulse of 0.123 to 0.256
Unit and structure explosions now have higher impulse
Depth charge accuracy and tracking reduced
L1 & L2 sub reload time and damage doubled (same DPS)
Serpent HP increased 900, range reduced by 55
Leviathan HP decreased by 500, reloadtime increased by 50%,
damage increased by 60%, range increased by 10
Sub detection stats are now:
Sight = weapon range
Sonar = weapon range +10%
Boosted sonar station sight/sonar range
Torpedo bombers can no longer target anything that's not a water
unit/structure and have sonar equal to their sight range
Mines no longer flatten the ground they're built on, but now have
a lower slope tolerance
Weasel HP increased 50%, weapon damage increased 25%, maximum
speed reduced 10%, turnrate reduced 100
Jeffy maximum speed increased 10%, turnrate increased 10%
Jeffy/Weasel acceleration/brake doubled
Corvette maximum speed increased 20%, turn rate increased 5%
Destroyer turn rate decreased 5%, energy cost increased 1000
Some credit for water-related changes this version goes to Zirjin
Thanks to, eh, let's say... "Quantum Tunneling"... LRPC and RFLRPC
shots can now go through friendly units
Poison Arrow renamed Kraken, since Poison Arrow is a retarded name
Triton, Kraken movementclass fixed, sight range increased
Metal maker, radar tower metal cost halved
Merl, Diplomat rocket reload time reduced by 4, missiles should no
longer "run out of fuel" before impact
Reduced Tremor's damage per hit to 170 (190), increased impulse
significantly
Gunships restored to 2.11 movement stats
Wind generator energy cost eliminated
Reverted Commander script to 2.11 version, d-gun should work again
Floating radars are no longer buildable on land
Core floating radar range ring size fixed
Changed repulsors so they can no longer receive commands
Reduced gantry metal costs, buildtimes, and workertimes
Added seperator between unit name and description
Increased repulsor energy use and effectiveness
L3 units now have custom nanolathing colors
Regular L3 mechs besides krogoth are now paralyzer-resistant
Nuke, EMP, Tacnuke launchers "should" no longer empty their entire
stockpile once given an attack order
Implemented improved weapon loudness system
Crawling bomb vs crawling bomb damage reduced
Reduced volume of Warning1 and Warning2
Mine, DT costs adjusted
All AWACS aircraft now have sonar
Exploiter HP increased by 200, metal cost reduced by 10, sight
range boosted by 20
Increased seaplane platform costs and HP
Reduced seaplane fighter HP and costs, increased firing rate
Increased Juno weapon speed, reduced flying height
Stumpy vs Raider balance fixed
Panther improved in every aspect
Boosted radar tower HP
Commanders always leaves a wreck now
Increased arm raising speed (for construction) on commanders
Rocket ship range reduced, AoE increased, damage increased,
reload time increased
Total unit count is actually 366, there was an extra FBI file
that wrecked the count
Weapon definitions categorized into different files:
Cannons
Dummies
Flak
Lasers
Mines
Missiles*
Nukes
Paralyzers**
Rockets*
Units
Water
Weapons***
* Difference between "missiles" and "rockets" is that rockets are
either non-seeking, vertical-launching, slow-moving, or cannot
easily hit aircraft
** Any weapon with paralyzer=1 goes in this category, regardless of
its other properties
*** Basically, the "else" category. If something doesn't fit into
the others, it goes here.
Still working on that unit guide. I'd forgotten how hard it was to get it just the way I wanted it.
I was just playing OTA+CC 3.1 recently, and the Cruise missle ships didn't have nearly the range that they do in AA.
Another thing about those Cruise ships is that they had a slight tracking ability, so they could counter for slower moving ships and track into static targets.
If Cruise missles actually missed the target, and this was true of any High angle missle attack, the rocket would fly around in a circle untill it either hit something or it ran out of fuel.
OTA aiming was very different than how Spring handles aiming at targets, OTA units never lead targets, so semi tracking units were the best for hitting anything moving.
Spring has a pretty awesome target leading system, that usually does a damn good job for calculating lead on a mobile target for slow projectile speed weapons.
Ota had faster projectile speeds on many units compared to AA-Spring, but its a good tradeoff in spring to have slower shots as they can be accuratly fired with good calculations.
Another thing about those Cruise ships is that they had a slight tracking ability, so they could counter for slower moving ships and track into static targets.
If Cruise missles actually missed the target, and this was true of any High angle missle attack, the rocket would fly around in a circle untill it either hit something or it ran out of fuel.
OTA aiming was very different than how Spring handles aiming at targets, OTA units never lead targets, so semi tracking units were the best for hitting anything moving.
Spring has a pretty awesome target leading system, that usually does a damn good job for calculating lead on a mobile target for slow projectile speed weapons.
Ota had faster projectile speeds on many units compared to AA-Spring, but its a good tradeoff in spring to have slower shots as they can be accuratly fired with good calculations.
-
Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
I assumed you're not playing an idiot who stuck a guardian on the shore line - I assumed that the person mentioned above stuck the guardian on land where your destroyers can't hit it - out of range.LordMatt wrote: Hmm, I've not had difficulty taking out MRPCs with destroyers... Missile ships should be high damage, long range, with a relatively slow firing rate. They should also be very vulnerable to being bombed or attacked with ships.
Also, isn't 1250 the range of a core punisher (guardian is 1230 IIRC).
Meaning that if someone spams punishers or toasters/ambushers you can forget about clearing the shoreline.
~~~
I'll try to update the modweb tonight.
~~~
Caydr, the link on aaspring.tk 22>223 patch seems to be borked - fix it, had to browse through teh project release page.
-
Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
Just updated teh Modweb/Technical Unit Guide.
Snoop around.
Edit : I REALLY LOVE TEH NEW PANTHER >:O.
Snoop around.
Edit : I REALLY LOVE TEH NEW PANTHER >:O.
Hmm, a possible ToucheFoxomaniac wrote:I assumed you're not playing an idiot who stuck a guardian on the shore line - I assumed that the person mentioned above stuck the guardian on land where your destroyers can't hit it - out of range.LordMatt wrote: Hmm, I've not had difficulty taking out MRPCs with destroyers... Missile ships should be high damage, long range, with a relatively slow firing rate. They should also be very vulnerable to being bombed or attacked with ships.