QFTDragon45 wrote:Caydr, why are you changing the resource model? Upgrading mexxes is a HASSLE, a lot of micro, and alot of resources expende to do it (in terms of time............ts (albeit not as high as speedmetal).
Also - why is escalation a bad thing?
And yes - tech balance is peachy and <3. Dont change it!
Absolute Annihilation 2.11
Moderator: Moderators
Forgot who said it, but I have many games (Fire Emblem, path of radiance is one) that easily gives an example, HUMANS DON'T LIKE DIFFERENT STUFF!
Annoying player A: Hey wanna play speedmetal?
Annoying player B: No and playing it is for nubz!
Annoying player A: Stfu nub, our way of playing is teh pwnzorz!
Annoying player B: No it ain't, all it is is a long ass porcfest! BOOORRRING!
Annoying player A: Well all you do on other maps is rush and make lots of units that move around a map!
Annoying player B: (blah blah blah!)
Conclusion: Why can't you all live in ignorant peace? Cuz we are humans, we think we are better than others, who think they are better! Not to mention we also get lonely!
Main point: I find AA an enjoyable game, while some complain too much, they could just be nice and formal and say "I think (imbalance) needs a change." Then find other people who know/have seen it, then everybody support everyone else! It's the only way to get something changed or else it just won't cut it!
Edit: If someone isn't already writing a flame, I have a feeling I'll get one soon...
Annoying player A: Hey wanna play speedmetal?
Annoying player B: No and playing it is for nubz!
Annoying player A: Stfu nub, our way of playing is teh pwnzorz!
Annoying player B: No it ain't, all it is is a long ass porcfest! BOOORRRING!
Annoying player A: Well all you do on other maps is rush and make lots of units that move around a map!
Annoying player B: (blah blah blah!)
Conclusion: Why can't you all live in ignorant peace? Cuz we are humans, we think we are better than others, who think they are better! Not to mention we also get lonely!
Main point: I find AA an enjoyable game, while some complain too much, they could just be nice and formal and say "I think (imbalance) needs a change." Then find other people who know/have seen it, then everybody support everyone else! It's the only way to get something changed or else it just won't cut it!
Edit: If someone isn't already writing a flame, I have a feeling I'll get one soon...
Last edited by Snipawolf on 20 Aug 2006, 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Charlemagne
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 18 Apr 2005, 17:59
qftdet wrote:Do you think there is some gameplay advantage to this or is it just a way to destroy SpeedMetal? Is this the mod maker's version of taking your ball and going home? That's just pathetic.Caydr wrote: Well, no, actually they'll be instantly self-destructing if their rotating arm goes faster than the speed it goes at roughly somewhere between 3 and 5 metal per tick (haven't decided yet). But you were close.
Oh happy day 
I love the idea of killing off speedmetal games, I get really sick of coming in to play a game, and all that is up is speedmetal.
Btw, this is Caydr's mod and he can do with it as he pleases.
Speedmetal is a plague upon the community, it is not how TA, AA, or any mod should be played.
Flame all you want, this idea to kill off speedmetal is great.
I love the idea of killing off speedmetal games, I get really sick of coming in to play a game, and all that is up is speedmetal.
Btw, this is Caydr's mod and he can do with it as he pleases.
Speedmetal is a plague upon the community, it is not how TA, AA, or any mod should be played.
Flame all you want, this idea to kill off speedmetal is great.
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2pacalypse
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 26 Apr 2006, 22:44
I really like the current tech levels, as it gives a feeling of progress to the game. I also love the large variety of units in the game, as it adds to the amount of strategies you can try. If anything, I'd love more units, just to facilitate the development of new strategies using them.
As far as speedmetal goes, I really don't understand the amount of hate towards it -- just kick anyone who enters your game who insists on Speedmetal. Easy. If people have fun spamming tons of units and making a huge lagfest, then why not let them? Would you really rather have them joining regular games, cluttering them up screaming about how there's not enough metal and how lame/nob/etc the other maps are? Sigh.
tldr; version:
I like being able to escalate, lots of neat units to play around with is great, and please don't make any drastic changes / chop huge numbers of units just because.
As far as speedmetal goes, I really don't understand the amount of hate towards it -- just kick anyone who enters your game who insists on Speedmetal. Easy. If people have fun spamming tons of units and making a huge lagfest, then why not let them? Would you really rather have them joining regular games, cluttering them up screaming about how there's not enough metal and how lame/nob/etc the other maps are? Sigh.
tldr; version:
I like being able to escalate, lots of neat units to play around with is great, and please don't make any drastic changes / chop huge numbers of units just because.
I think the idea of the AA Kbots is to have a non-flak mobile L2 AA option. Caydr said they'd basically be pumped up Jethros.Bhaal wrote:You all think we need the lvl 2 AA kbot s ?
i think it s perfect the way it is...
If you want mobile flak u can build veh lvl2 ....
maybe nerf instigators a bit ?
Why do you think Instis need a nerf?
I also think the current L1->L2 progression is about right. L2 units are worth getting, but can be countered by L1 swarms.
Also, I hadn't used it much before, but after seeing it in the tourney today and playing with it a bit myself, I now <3 L1 vehicle artillery. That stuff is awesome.
Level 1.5 mexes - interesting idea. I would be concerned about the possibility of making the game drag out longer with an extra level of economy. But the idea is probably worth some playtesting, or even trying for a version before deciding whether to continue with it, or to drop it. I think it would be interesting if it was a viable option to go level 1.5 mex, level 2 factory, and then spam level 2 units and try to catch the opponenent out with an attack while they are trying to build level 2 economy. Especially if it could be balanced so that going for level 2 econ first or going for level 2 aggression first based on 1.5 is a balanced choice and different players could tend to prefer one style or the other. Maybe make it so that only the com can build the level 1.5 mexes. Or go even further and make the com the only unit able to build level 2 mexes. That would give the com a big value in com continues games.
Amphibious and hover is so much fun. However hover feels a little underpowered, but I guess you get that for the flexibility of being able to go on both land and sea. As it is I think hover is kind of like air - can do nice damage if you attack when it is unexpected, but easy to defend against if you anticipate it. Except the hover seems more likely to be countered 'accidently' by players building a few destroyers for a normal sea battle. And hover doesn't have the same utility as air for rapid deployment, easy concentration of swarmed fire power, and scouting.
I would love to see more amphibious units for variety. How about a rocket launcher like the merl that can fire from sea or land. It is underwater and can be hit by torpedoes, and out of reach of surface weapons. Unless it surfaces to fire its rockets, and then it can be hit by anything that can hit a floating ship. And then it can walk onto land to continue the bombardment.
For sea, I would rather see the advanced torpedoe launchers boosted to fill a role similar to that of a pop up cannon, instead of building a bob up cannon. Simply to give the game a bit more variety between land and sea. And I think it would be nice if the com had the same ability to stop a sea based rush as it does a land rush. Maybe d-gun underwater. Or have a torpedo launcher that can hold of a handful of skeeters, or a sub or destroyer, but nothing more. Either that or put a torpedo launcher or laser tower on the ship yard - just so that an early rush in water is around as dangerous as an early rush on land.
Amphibious and hover is so much fun. However hover feels a little underpowered, but I guess you get that for the flexibility of being able to go on both land and sea. As it is I think hover is kind of like air - can do nice damage if you attack when it is unexpected, but easy to defend against if you anticipate it. Except the hover seems more likely to be countered 'accidently' by players building a few destroyers for a normal sea battle. And hover doesn't have the same utility as air for rapid deployment, easy concentration of swarmed fire power, and scouting.
I would love to see more amphibious units for variety. How about a rocket launcher like the merl that can fire from sea or land. It is underwater and can be hit by torpedoes, and out of reach of surface weapons. Unless it surfaces to fire its rockets, and then it can be hit by anything that can hit a floating ship. And then it can walk onto land to continue the bombardment.
For sea, I would rather see the advanced torpedoe launchers boosted to fill a role similar to that of a pop up cannon, instead of building a bob up cannon. Simply to give the game a bit more variety between land and sea. And I think it would be nice if the com had the same ability to stop a sea based rush as it does a land rush. Maybe d-gun underwater. Or have a torpedo launcher that can hold of a handful of skeeters, or a sub or destroyer, but nothing more. Either that or put a torpedo launcher or laser tower on the ship yard - just so that an early rush in water is around as dangerous as an early rush on land.
Hmm
Just though I'd chime in here with my opinions as yet-another-player-with-opinions.
I fully expect to be called a retard by Min3Mat, Egarwaen, and many other superior players than I.
1) On shields: thinking it over, my ideal shield system would be one which blocks shots both from the inside and out - making it useful as a way to protect defenses from artillery _except_ unarmed structures. You could even make them cheap enough to be useful in that case, and players could drop the damn things over their mohogeos and forward radar bases. It would still be useless in long-term porcing because it wouldn't protect your annihilators in any useful way - artillery can still just wipe out anything outside the shield, and any defenses inside the shield are harmless.
2) I don't like the L1.5 mines concept. I agree that upgrading mines is a hassle. If you want L1 mines to be more powerful, just make L1 mines more powerful. If you really wanted to do that, I'd rather you just made moho mines into L1 units.
3) Now for the really unpopular suggestion: NERF L2. It seems to me that the biggest problem AA faces is that whole "jump to L2" thing. EE struggles with the same problem, but to a lesser extent. The problem is that staying L1 any longer than strictly necessary is suicidal. The source of this is because AA has a fundamental design different from OTA (one that many hardcore AA players constantly argue with me over) - in OTA, most L2 units were not _better_ than L1, they were _wierder_. Cans were slowers, zeuses were shorter ranged, etc. If you look at the old stats, the L2 pop-ups were not better than the L1 versions - they were in fact a good deal worse, the difference in power and price being paid in their pop-up-ness. Nerf L2 and players will stop rushing L2 until the time is right. Right now, you NEED to hit L2 ASAP to get the mohomines, fusions, etc. or else your enemy will easily out-economy and crush you under a horde of L2 units that completely laugh-off your L1 army. Once the L2 economy is established the L1 units become a joke - whereas in OTA, the L1 units were still your front-line army. The L2 stuff was there to fill special-needs roles. Like in StarCraft - you didn't stop building marines just because you could build siege tanks. Then you could even cheapen the L2 factories so the game doesn't have to _stop_ while people go to L2.
The only games that don't hit L2 that I've seen are the games that are so brutally violent at L1 that nobody has the spare economy to put into the L2 fac (these games are standard fare on maps where you have too much frontline to porc - the Comet, Haven, and Moon games that the hardcores favour). Those games are, imho, the most fun you can have in AA. L2 becomes, at most, the endgame once one team already has the upper hand.
I await the oncoming rush of flames.
I fully expect to be called a retard by Min3Mat, Egarwaen, and many other superior players than I.
1) On shields: thinking it over, my ideal shield system would be one which blocks shots both from the inside and out - making it useful as a way to protect defenses from artillery _except_ unarmed structures. You could even make them cheap enough to be useful in that case, and players could drop the damn things over their mohogeos and forward radar bases. It would still be useless in long-term porcing because it wouldn't protect your annihilators in any useful way - artillery can still just wipe out anything outside the shield, and any defenses inside the shield are harmless.
2) I don't like the L1.5 mines concept. I agree that upgrading mines is a hassle. If you want L1 mines to be more powerful, just make L1 mines more powerful. If you really wanted to do that, I'd rather you just made moho mines into L1 units.
3) Now for the really unpopular suggestion: NERF L2. It seems to me that the biggest problem AA faces is that whole "jump to L2" thing. EE struggles with the same problem, but to a lesser extent. The problem is that staying L1 any longer than strictly necessary is suicidal. The source of this is because AA has a fundamental design different from OTA (one that many hardcore AA players constantly argue with me over) - in OTA, most L2 units were not _better_ than L1, they were _wierder_. Cans were slowers, zeuses were shorter ranged, etc. If you look at the old stats, the L2 pop-ups were not better than the L1 versions - they were in fact a good deal worse, the difference in power and price being paid in their pop-up-ness. Nerf L2 and players will stop rushing L2 until the time is right. Right now, you NEED to hit L2 ASAP to get the mohomines, fusions, etc. or else your enemy will easily out-economy and crush you under a horde of L2 units that completely laugh-off your L1 army. Once the L2 economy is established the L1 units become a joke - whereas in OTA, the L1 units were still your front-line army. The L2 stuff was there to fill special-needs roles. Like in StarCraft - you didn't stop building marines just because you could build siege tanks. Then you could even cheapen the L2 factories so the game doesn't have to _stop_ while people go to L2.
The only games that don't hit L2 that I've seen are the games that are so brutally violent at L1 that nobody has the spare economy to put into the L2 fac (these games are standard fare on maps where you have too much frontline to porc - the Comet, Haven, and Moon games that the hardcores favour). Those games are, imho, the most fun you can have in AA. L2 becomes, at most, the endgame once one team already has the upper hand.
I await the oncoming rush of flames.
One minor problem with your logic: L2 factories are expensive. Someone teching is going to be at a considerable economic disadvantage compared to someone who isn't. This translates to a military disadvantage. Tech rushing only ever really seems viable on chokepoint-heavy maps. Anywhere else you get pwnt.
That's not to say that teching up doesn't happen in competitive games, but it tends to happen during a natural "lull" in combat. So a few minutes' edge either way won't decide the game.
That's not to say that teching up doesn't happen in competitive games, but it tends to happen during a natural "lull" in combat. So a few minutes' edge either way won't decide the game.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Re: Hmm
On an offtopic note... EE does NOT struggle with lv2 being overpowered. If lv2 in EE is not backed up by masses of lv1 they will get slaughtered by lv1. Same goes for lv3 in EE, they cannot survive well on their own without backup, even from lv1. This is by design.Pxtl wrote:
3) Now for the really unpopular suggestion: NERF L2. It seems to me that the biggest problem AA faces is that whole "jump to L2" thing. EE struggles with the same problem, but to a lesser extent. The problem is that staying L1 any longer than strictly necessary is suicidal.
AA could benefit by taking this tack. Basically making it so that lv2 by itself will get owned by lv1, but when backed up by lv1 you ahve a dominating force.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
People who enjoy speedmetal are mearly playing a different game than the larger average crowd.
There is no better way of playing. Just completely different games. Like comparing Everquest to, say, Starcraft. Completely different.
To put something in place that goes against the way they ENJOY the game, you'll only serve to isolate/remove them from the entire scene. And while it may seem like a good idea, Hitler had a similar idea.
Think about that for a moment.
There is no better way of playing. Just completely different games. Like comparing Everquest to, say, Starcraft. Completely different.
To put something in place that goes against the way they ENJOY the game, you'll only serve to isolate/remove them from the entire scene. And while it may seem like a good idea, Hitler had a similar idea.
Think about that for a moment.
Point to note: its not just costs and effectiveness tha keep L1 fro mbeing obsolete, its roles in general. Fex, I was playing a massive comet game earlier (1v1) and the game just kept escalating; we eventually both had L2 - he had Arm kbots - and what ended up happenign was thet he kept his L1 plant around becuase he needed to make jethros to bakc up his Mavs with AA.
Also, he would make Fleas and Peewees to hit me at points where my defenses or forces would go down for a sec; sometimes he owuld build Zippers too to back them up.
what im saying is that All L1 Does Not Have To Be Useful All The Time.
For example, it generally behooves a Core player to keep (or rebuild) an L1 Air plant so that they can spam Bladewings/Valkries. Will they necessarily build L1 bombers if they have L2 bombers? No. But there is no real L1 equivalent of a bladewing, and that means that L1 stays useful.
In the sea, there is no equivalent of the searcher/skeeter - a cheap fast scout boat - s even when you have L2, it is a good idea for a plyaer to keep an L1 shipyard around, to use that particular unit. Will an Enforcer/Crusader be built if you cna build Execuitioners/COnquerors instead? probably not. But it still means that L1 remains useful.
By simply tacking on a beefed-up jeothro, you inch closer to making l1 obsolete.
and what forboding said - about L2 needing L1 to survive - is already true to a large extent, precisely becuase of the unique roles of L1 units along certainvertical tech lines.
Also, he would make Fleas and Peewees to hit me at points where my defenses or forces would go down for a sec; sometimes he owuld build Zippers too to back them up.
what im saying is that All L1 Does Not Have To Be Useful All The Time.
For example, it generally behooves a Core player to keep (or rebuild) an L1 Air plant so that they can spam Bladewings/Valkries. Will they necessarily build L1 bombers if they have L2 bombers? No. But there is no real L1 equivalent of a bladewing, and that means that L1 stays useful.
In the sea, there is no equivalent of the searcher/skeeter - a cheap fast scout boat - s even when you have L2, it is a good idea for a plyaer to keep an L1 shipyard around, to use that particular unit. Will an Enforcer/Crusader be built if you cna build Execuitioners/COnquerors instead? probably not. But it still means that L1 remains useful.
By simply tacking on a beefed-up jeothro, you inch closer to making l1 obsolete.
and what forboding said - about L2 needing L1 to survive - is already true to a large extent, precisely becuase of the unique roles of L1 units along certainvertical tech lines.