Spring RTS Engine

Hi All,

I've just posted a review of TA Spring 0.70b3 on the web at: http://nickj.org/Review_of_TA_Spring
I've especially concentrated on the User-Interface, since that is the area that interests me the most, and have tried to make specific and constructive suggestions for things that would improve the UI.

Your comments and feedback are welcome. The article is on a wiki, so please feel free to edit it to correct any typos or factual errors, or add links to relevant bug reports, etc; Or post your comments on this thread.

All the best,
Nick.

Its beta...

Anyway, i doubt anyone is going to bother changing a bunch of source because your girlfriend accidentally blew up her commander once. A lot of the thing you listed are all part of the learning process, like the click-interface. After a game or two you get used to it.

Well...I like FPS mode myself. Of course its not really useful for current games, but its a mighty neat gimick, why remove it?

The message box *does* display the commander countdown. You weren't looking closely enough =)

There is a way to change from the default view out of the box - ctrl+j or ctrl+mouse wheel click.

The nick %, and number at the bottom of your screen are your name, cpu usage %, and ping. To turn it off type .info in the message box.

Right click on the minimap is move there.

F3 goes to source of last message.

Left/Right click confusion will go away soon, I was all set after about 2 hours ingame.

To your points at the end:
FPS mode should stay, if you don't like it, don't use it >_>
Free Look mode is ideal for screenshot taking. Why remove it?

Last two are GUI issues that will be sorted when CEGUI is implemented into
spring (currently being worked on)

Actually, most of the things you mention will be solvable once real GUI work is done. The current GUI is really just a placeholder.

Edit: Actually...its possible for a modder to change the self destruction countdown time. So if you *really* wanted to you could give the commander a 20 second self destruct countdown.

Sad but True.
On the other hand, most things like "Inconsistency of left-click and right-click" are just a matter of taste: Starcraft, command and conquer, Age of Empires - its done different everywhere.

"No way to make a LAN game in the default install"
at least in the earlier versions you could play 1v1 without the lobby.
1) start spring.exe
2) player A: "be server? -> yes"
3) player B: "be server? -> no" -> enter ip

"Units sometimes get stuck" / "units dont obey"
try using the waypoint system (shift) and with a little pratice this will no longer be a problem. units get confused in all RTS, even (escpecially...) in Starcraft. With Spring you can at least give them complex orders that to 99% are carried out.


"Left-hand unit action window looks transparent, but it is not transparent to actions"
at least it goes away if you do not need it, unlike in many other games
(I think it always stayed onscreen in the original TA as well?)

"Should indicate when units have been selected for attack"
just press shift to see all waypoints for the selected units
red lines mean attack.

"In the "battle window", clicking on the "ready" marker next to your name should do the same thing as clicking on "I'm ready" at the bottom of the screen."
Its a different "ready." the ingame ready means, you have choosen your start location. The lobby ready means you have selected your team, have downloaded the map etc.

"If you select 30 mobile units and accidentally include one building"
there are usefull hotkeys, use SelectionEditor.exe to define your own, ie "select all airplanes with 50%+ health"


"The resource bars jump up and down instead of increasing or decreasing smoothly. Makes it hard to visually see what's going on with your resources."
Please do not change this! This usually is a good signal when your eco is in trouble and also fun to watch.

This game is distrubed for free, go and some EA Game, and thats is a big company...

Or just get some micro, ya know? There are pros and noobs, its like its called the balance, alright?

knorke wrote:"Units sometimes get stuck" / "units dont obey"
try using the waypoint system (shift) and with a little pratice this will no longer be a problem. units get confused in all RTS, even (escpecially...) in Starcraft. With Spring you can at least give them complex orders that to 99% are carried out.

This is actually a fair criticism. Currently, it's very easy to get a unit stuck somewhere it can't get out of (even when it's trying to exit a factory!). And units will often take a very long way around, even when there's a shorter path that they can definitely take (confirmed by FPSing and driving through).

yea, i hate this myself. escpially if the whole console gets spammed by "cant reach destination"-messages.
Maybe I just got used to using waypoints for "difficult" moves

Egarwaen wrote:

knorke wrote:"Units sometimes get stuck" / "units dont obey"
try using the waypoint system (shift) and with a little pratice this will no longer be a problem. units get confused in all RTS, even (escpecially...) in Starcraft. With Spring you can at least give them complex orders that to 99% are carried out.

This is actually a fair criticism. Currently, it's very easy to get a unit stuck somewhere it can't get out of (even when it's trying to exit a factory!). And units will often take a very long way around, even when there's a shorter path that they can definitely take (confirmed by FPSing and driving through).

If I remember correctly this wasn't so much of a problem in pre-0.7 versions, before the crossplatform code? So I guess it's going to be fixed in the next version.

As for the OP: Yeah the UI is rudimentary, hard to understand for new players and has lots of quirks and features. But Spring is an open-source hobby project that will never stop being developed, not a commercial one, so REMOVING features or altering them to be more like other games isn't going to happen. The gameplay dynamics of most mods in Spring are very different from other strategy games.

The problem is that new players have no idea when and where different features are needed. One way of informing new players could be to have scripted training missions that walks the player through all the features, explaining how and when and where they can be used.

smoth wrote:removed -moderator

Give a reason why you don't like it then?

* hands nickj 'C++ dor dummys'. Here, go ahead.

[Sheekel wrote]:
> It's beta...

... hence the specific suggestions for the beta.

> Anyway, i doubt anyone is going to bother changing a bunch of
> source because your girlfriend accidentally blew up her
> commander once.

Oh. Ok. I had assumed the general aim here was to get people to like and play TA:Spring, and to use the game. I must have been wrong. My bad.

Besides, if you keep reading, you'll see I was wrong on this point.

> A lot of the thing you listed are all part of the learning
> process, like the click-interface. After a game or two you
> get used to it.

No, but you don't understand: What you're effectively learning is to work around the UI issues. If you want to create an insanely great game, then the answer is to smooth out the UI issues, not to force your users to compensate for them.

[Nemo wrote]:
> Well...I like FPS mode myself. Of course its not really useful for
> current games, but its a mighty neat gimmick, why remove it?

It's very a neat gimmick. I don't think the feature should be removed, I think that *maybe* the default key bindings to switch to 3D mode should be removed.

> The message box *does* display the commander countdown. You
> weren't looking closely enough =)

You're quite correct, it does. Sorry, I was simply wrong about this.

> Edit: Actually...its possible for a modder to change the self destruction
> countdown time. So if you *really* wanted to you could give the commander
> a 20 second self destruct countdown.

No, the 20 seconds was just an example, the current 5 seconds is fine.

> There is a way to change from the default view out of the box - ctrl+j or ctrl+mouse wheel click.

OK, but it's users (particularly new users) getting stuck in the other view modes and not knowing how to get out that I'm commenting on, and suggesting that maybe something can be done to prevent that (e.g. different key bindings).

> The nick %, and number at the bottom of your screen are your name,
> cpu usage %, and ping. To turn it off type .info in the message box.

Ah, thank you. Is there any chance it could maybe be off by default?

> Right click on the minimap is move there.

This doesn't work for me. I selected the commander, right clicked once on the minimap, and it changed the view to that location, but did not move the unit. What I am suggesting is the exact opposite: that right clicking on the mini-map should move the unit, but not change the view.

> F3 goes to source of last message.

Again, you're quite correct, there is a key for this that I missed.

However, the F3 function doesn't seem to work very well. To see what I mean, select your commander, press Ctrl-D to activate self-destruct, then cancel it with Ctrl-D again. Now press F3. It should stay focussed on your commander, since he was the source of the last message, but instead (for me at least) it flies off to the top left of the map. So, yes, there is a function for this, but it doesn't seem to work.

> Left/Right click confusion will go away soon, I was all set
> after about 2 hours in-game.

I completely disagree with you on this point - not because what you say is wrong, but because it's the wrong approach. Effectively, you're pushing the game's inconsistency onto the user. The hidden cost of doing this is that many users will give up in frustration. It's much better to just make the click interface consistent, so it doesn't take each user 2 hours of their life to learn to work around TA:Spring's inconsistent user-interface.

> To your points at the end:
> FPS mode should stay, if you don't like it, don't use it >_>

Fair enough. I was suggesting maybe it should be disabled in the default key bindings, but I agree it's not something you have to use, so point taken.

> Free Look mode is ideal for screenshot taking. Why remove it?

Let me rephrase: Free look mode per-se is fine, it's that free look mode is selected when jumping out of FPS mode that I have the problem with. If free look mode was like FPS (don't have to use it if you don't want to) then I would have not really have a problem with it. But if you get out of FPS mode, you *have* to use Free Look mode. That's what I object to.

> Last two are GUI issues that will be sorted when CEGUI is implemented into
> spring (currently being worked on)
>
> Actually, most of the things you mention will be solvable once real GUI
> work is done. The current GUI is really just a placeholder.

Fantastic - that's great to hear.

[smoth wrote]:
> that was a pretty shitty review.

Why, thank you, sir/madam/immature child, for your oh-so-constructive comment. You could have been specific and constructive, as others were, but I suppose that would require some thought on your behalf. ;-)

Lastly, I'll update the review page shortly with the above stuff to correct my mistakes, and add explanations from the above for items where I wasn't clear.

All the best,
Nick.

-----------

Edit: Those updates have now been applied: http://nickj.org/index.php?title=Review ... oldid=1939

nickj wrote:[Sheekel wrote]:
Why, thank you, sir/madam/immature child, for your oh-so-constructive comment. You could have been specific and constructive, as others were, but I suppose that would require some thought on your behalf.

Well, it IS a pretty shitty review.
Its horribly formatted, lacks any sense of structur and flow and fails to "get" even basic concepts.
Plus it finishes with retarted conclusions.

Just because you can use a wiki doesnt mean you are a reviewer, the content would be much better placed into 2 or 3 forum posts (where the nonnsense could be seperated from the real issues )than into something that is pretentiously called a "review"

IMSabbel wrote:Its horribly formatted

How would you prefer it be formatted? Be specific.

IMSabbel wrote:lacks any sense of structur and flow ... pretentiously called a "review"

Happy to rename it. How about: "a list of UI things that suck in TA:Spring"?

IMSabbel wrote: and fails to "get" even basic concepts.

And exactly which basic concepts does it fail to get? Be specific.

IMSabbel wrote:Plus it finishes with retarted conclusions.

What exactly do you want me to say? How would you summarize it?

All the best,
Nick.

not only is the review crappily made it is also full of shit. read the caps please...

I think it has a lot of good points for making the learning curve less steep and increasing springs player base, but again the ui is a placeholder. When we get a new ui we can make spring pretty, intuitive, and easy to use. Until then spring is for 1337 h4XX0rz only. So take your gf and your criticism and you just leave! I'm going to go cry cause my feelings are hurt.

Nickj, it really isn't very correct.

Like it was said before, if you rtfm, then you would understand a lot better.

That what manuals are for, so you can read them :D

But nickj has a point: it's difficult for a newb to use the user interface.

Of course, after some games, it seem "logical" ... but hopefully, not all games are like that.

And that's why we're making a new GUI.

Even now that I mostly got used to the right click thing, I still believe a tickbox to revert to left-click old TA interface would be great and relieve from alot of pain.

The GUI is ugly, and that is worked on. However, it is very powerful and functionnal. You can quickly issue area reclaim, turn on repeat on factory, giver oder to units not even built, etc... Maybe something should be done to make new user more aware of the power of Spring GUIs. (This is the part where I link to my tips dispenser idea topic.)

That you can't give order via the minimap is a known shortcoming, that we hope will eventually get fixed some day.

I agree that when immobile and mobile are selected and you give a move order, it would be nicer to move all that can move.

3D fps mode is pretty hard to trigger accidentally, and is a nice addition, even if not very useable, it's more a gimmick that you try once the first time but then forget about it, so keep it; It's just here for the "whoa!!! factor, but doesn't interfer with normal playing. (Actually there's those talk about having greater range in FPS that says FPSing can give you an edge in tight situation, with the draw back of consuming much of the player time, time during which he doesn't manage the rest.)

When you press every key and every key combination, then ignore the console message, don't surprised things happens. Read the Manual instead of hitting random ctrl+key if you don't want such surprise. It's not like finger can accidently slip on ctrl D, and it's not like the selected units immediatly explode when you do.

The LAN capability is already here, just there at least two ways to use it and it's not very clearly explained how to. But on the other hand, I kinda like that newb are forced to use the multiplayer lobby, if everybody played private LAN games, the lobby would appear dead, and by ricochet Spring itself would appear dead.


Would be nice if the when going out of the "C" first person, the camera was restored to the previous mode, instead of FPS. Not only it would the newb getting confused when they don't find back their regular view, but it would also prevent me from taking a few seconds to realise the unit I was in died.

Pathfinding is very complex issue, that all RTS stumble on.

The weird error message you had seem to be related to AI. As long as they don't crash, I would redirect complain to whoever made that AI and not the main Spring developpper.

Press F5 and F9. There, no clutter on the screen! (Ok, you can't play either, but eh!). I believe that by default there should be the most info possible on the GUI (ok, not to the point where it clutter the view so much you can't play.)

I don't have much trouble moving to location by clicking on the minimap, but don't remember if I left click or right click.

There is a reference key, and I thought it was shipped with Spring. When I install spring, the "show readme" or something is ticked by default, and from then it takes one click to see the list of key and commands. I think. And htlm is definitively better than PDF: lighter, quicker to load, easier to modify, more familair hyperlink,...

I guess those old TA keys you listed could be added, as long as they are relevenat and don't conflict with already taken key. However, I really think the whole concept of buildmenu page should be thrown away, and that instead, all buildpics should spill over the main screen, like in TA:Kingdom. It's unberable to be forced to see buildpic 6 at a time (or a little more but then no regular order menu). I want to see all bp and order at once, filling my screen!

Makes sense to me that when you click on a semitransparent menu, the click is performed on the menu and not on the map. The semitransparency is just so you can see and aren't blinded by the menu. Gnome once made a solid black gui that he claimed to be better. Personnaly I'd like a small condensed solid gui.

Draggable and scalable windows is really cool and nice! It would be a really stupid idea to remove draggability and scalability! Don't want to drag the ressource windows? Fine then, don't drag it. But don't ask for features to be removed just because you haven't used them in the first hour of play. Other people may actually enjoy dragging their window. Well, I know for instance that myself like shrinking and enlarging the minimap, and move it to another corner when it blocks my view.

Shift escape is a combination very unlikely to be pressed by accident. I hate program that have too many useless prompt. I want my PC to obey me swiftly, not to contest any decision. Prompt box that ask you "Are you sure?" are especially annoying, and having to take back the mouse and center it on an "ok" button after giving command via the keyboard is a real nuisance. Really, being able to quickly quit the game by pressing shift exit without having to vade throught confirmation box is a good thing. When you are testing mods and launching Spring every minute, when you have trouble getting everybody in a stable game and keep relaunching, prompt box that ask "are you sure" are the kind of things that drive people on the verge of insanity. If I press shift esc I am already sure I want to quit, duh!

Somehow I get some confirmation my order have been registered: I see units stopping their current action, turning, and moving. Then I hold shift and see some nice colored diagramm showing the enqueued action. Maybe I turned on the loudspeaker I would even heard a confirmation sound.

Ok, when you have 0 storage capacity of ressource, the ressource bar graphically goes haywire. But as long as it doesn't crash, I don't really mind. It's an extremely minor bug, the kind of forgiveable for such an amazing and complex free RTS.



But it's just one of those newb issue you overcome as soon as you read the manual.

nickj wrote: * 2.2 Can't order units to do something using the mini-map

This is almost a common enough request to be Monthly Topic Rotation, yess we all know this is a problem, but we can fix it very easyly.

nickj wrote: * 2.3 Units do not obey you in battle

I genral they will obay you but there are still bugs. Gunships in piticuler.

nickj wrote: * 2.4 Move means move

I am actually happy that factories won't reset their waypoints very easyly.

nickj wrote: * 2.5 Get rid of 3D First Person Shooter mode

I think that if it was unbound by default, that no one would ever use it, but I do think it should be something like Ctrl-something insted. I always press c to capture.

nickj wrote: * 2.14 Game needs a PDF key reference

I personally hate PDFs. I'm one of those people who would call any link to a PDF that isn't labeled a "PDF bomb," because when you click on it, the computer seem to crash for a long time.

But that said, I do think that we should include a html to txt readme when we leave beta.

nickj wrote: * 2.15 Keys which worked in TA but which are missing in TA:Spring

I agree, this is a proglem, my advice is do it your self. Change keys.txt to suit you and post it online.

nickj wrote: * 2.16 Cannot jump out of a game to change settings

This isn't the real problem. The real problem is, "The engine doesn't support changing setting while in game." If you want to fix this, more power to you, but if you don't, let the devs do more inportand stuff first.

nickj wrote: * 2.17 Needs a spacebar goes to source of last message function

Sorry, but I like the original key.

nickj wrote:
* 2.12 Less clutter on the screen
* 2.13 Left-clicking on the mini-map should move to that location
* 2.22 Pressing Shift-Escape should probably prompt
* 2.23 Should indicate when units have been selected for attack
* 2.24 Minor polish things
* 2.25 Smoother unit tracking

Wait till the newGUI works. We don't want to fix all these again, after we use it.



I'm not saying that half of what you mentioned aren't bugs, but they are bug we all know about. I think that people are getting annoyed because the first responce that comes to mind it: "We know about this already. We've know about this for months now. Please stop repeating the obvious."
I know that you don't know this but people tend to react badly when people nag, and people have been nagging about these bugs for months. If you want to fix then, that's fine, but in the mean time, let the devs do there job.

# When my commander died at the end of game, the energy and metal scrollbars went way off the screen (looked like they went to infinity). Happened on a game starting with 10,000 resources, so maybe that was the issue.

3 words - you need storage