This BAR thang...

This BAR thang...

Balanced Annihilation with remade Units

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GuyNoir
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This BAR thang...

Post by GuyNoir » 22 Jan 2012, 16:07

A couple of questions. Just curious as a fairly long time player but on closed server with fiends/friends - although have played on the open variety sometimes - all luvely except the ones which arn't - but everybody knows which ones those are.

1) Is this BAR thing going to replace in it's entirety current BA? or is it actually going to be officially forked at some point allowing peeps who currently like the current BA, (game play/graphics,etc), to use it in it's more or less current form.

2) Has there been an official type notification that the Core/Arm designations can't be used? (looked over the forums and can't see that any lawyer type letters have been received, so has this been in background/inner circle where us plebs arn't notified?).

3) Grouped nuke launcher attacks still seem to continue to attack the same point over and over if left to their own weird logic, (ok an old one and probably not noticed outside of "special" play :-) ).

4) Missile Launcher type units come out of their factories firing, (if built sneakly outside of enemy bases). Annoying for the once in the lifetime type sneaky scenarios.
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PicassoCT
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by PicassoCT » 22 Jan 2012, 16:23

GuyNoir wrote:A couple of questions. Just curious as a fairly long time player but on closed server with fiends/friends - although have played on the open variety sometimes - all luvely except the ones which arn't - but everybody knows which ones those are.

1) Is this BAR thing going to replace in it's entirety current BA? or is it actually going to be officially forked at some point allowing peeps who currently like the current BA, (game play/graphics,etc), to use it in it's more or less current form.

2) Has there been an official type notification that the Core/Arm designations can't be used? (looked over the forums and can't see that any lawyer type letters have been received, so has this been in background/inner circle where us plebs arn't notified?).

3) Grouped nuke launcher attacks still seem to continue to attack the same point over and over if left to their own weird logic, (ok an old one and probably not noticed outside of "special" play :-) ).

4) Missile Launcher type units come out of their factories firing, (if built sneakly outside of enemy bases). Annoying for the once in the lifetime type sneaky scenarios.
4) The default is default: "The unit does nothing" gets way more people going. Sorry. At least the sneaky AI-Gadget made comando unit handling smother, didnt it?

3) Dunno about this one. Most games dont get that far.

2) NBA (NeoBA) moves away from the Total Annhilation franchise, so Atari cant get us. You can still call them whatever you like.

1) NBA(R) is replacing BAs Unit and Buildings graphix. It will not affect the ballance however. So why fork? Its questionable if someone will still invest time to maintain the oldta content after that. So i guess with the next SpringEngine update, it will become unplayable sooner or later. Sorry about that, but we cant wait for every Retrofan with a 486er. If you keep the Spring Version and make your own lobbyserver, you still should be able to play it with your friends though.

Oh, and by the way, not a NBA Dev.
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KaiserJ
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by KaiserJ » 22 Jan 2012, 18:11

1) fork
2) i haven't seen it written in stone but it does seem to be a popular idea
3) not sure about this one
4) set your factory to hold fire!
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Google_Frog
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by Google_Frog » 23 Jan 2012, 10:43

1) Replace. It may technically be a fork because nothing will stop you developing the old version but in practise no one will.

2) BAR seems to be a meritocracy and BA has no permanent developers as such. In this environment there isn't a clear cut group of people capable of saying anything official except maybe Mr. Bob because he has done a lot of the work noone else was willing to do. I don't recall him saying anything about that but the general consensus is for a faction rename.

3) Sounds like they need commandFire=1

4) Known: http://springrts.com/mantis/view.php?id=2407. Hold fire is the workaround for the moment.
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marciolino
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by marciolino » 23 Jan 2012, 15:46

Since models are quite different, the physics are different, so the scripts will change. Am I wrong?

So I though that balance would change at least a little. But maybe I am just missing something. :shock:
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Beherith
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by Beherith » 23 Jan 2012, 16:07

Related balance changes will be extremely minor.
No lawyer letter have been received. We wish to keep it that way.
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scifi
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by scifi » 24 Jan 2012, 02:09

well the scripts must change, some can be reusable though, there will be some differences in game-play obviously, and dare i migth say its a good thing.

It will make people think about certain aspects of the game, its a positive thing.

CA balance didnt changed at all with the introduction of new models and animations, yet changes had to be made, to accommodate the new scripts.

In CA I recall the ARm Rocko, as the turn rate was a lot better with the new model, and was just spam rockos with (Emp), games for a while.

Only thing i beg of you is dont keep changing things like CA did i mean every 1000 repo versions id felt like i forgot how to play, after that i stoped caring, now i cant even touch zero-k, i just immediately start it and leave rigth after.(but thats just me)
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smoth
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by smoth » 24 Jan 2012, 02:15

GuyNoir

hello fellow NPR listener.. great radio show that is.
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smoth
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by smoth » 24 Jan 2012, 02:16

marciolino wrote:Since models are quite different, the physics are different, so the scripts will change. Am I wrong?
The models do not effect the physics of a unit.
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CarRepairer
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by CarRepairer » 24 Jan 2012, 02:28

scifi wrote:Only thing i beg of you is dont keep changing things like CA did i mean every 1000 repo versions id felt like i forgot how to play, after that i stoped caring, now i cant even touch zero-k, i just immediately start it and leave rigth after.(but thats just me)
CA was CA and ZK is ZK. ZK gameplay has not changed from the time ZK was created years ago. Can you let it go now? CA was a wip project, it's over now.
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scifi
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by scifi » 24 Jan 2012, 02:39

i gave a personal opinion, i never said anything bad about it over the years, choices were made , was just how i felt about the way the development was made.

Well 1-faction fork , i enjoyed it, but then ah well, i dunno....

CA left a print in me, now i cant touch ZK or any other mod for that matter, i need a break from spring.

Its not a matter of not being able to play, its just i dont find it fun anymore. And no im not sayng CA was better, im just sayng all the changes, made me not like the mod loong enough to stay and enjoy it.
Last edited by scifi on 24 Jan 2012, 02:46, edited 3 times in total.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by luckywaldo7 » 24 Jan 2012, 02:40

Models have the potential to change balance with hitsphere size, footprint, firing arc, etc.

Although if you know that, you already know that there are far too many variables to ever be perfectly balanced. And besides looking much better, the new BAR models are all very similar to the models they are inspired by. (Not to mention, balance itself can be a bit of a red herring in game design)

About lawyer letters, if your opponent has a nuke, would you wait until they fire it to build your anti?
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Google_Frog
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by Google_Frog » 24 Jan 2012, 08:34

Models definitely change balance because I have seen noticeable several times. Unnoticeable balance changes occur on every model change but if that unit's balance is not explored deeply enough. In this case the change doesn't matter.

The model changes the hitvolume and unit centre. Other changes such as aiming and setup speed are due to changes to the script. Of course if the modeller and animator are careful they can avoid changes but this is rare in my experience. It may be worthwhile to pay attention to the script and hitvolume of a few T1 units that you feel are particularly important for balance.
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marciolino
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by marciolino » 24 Jan 2012, 10:01

Ok thanks, that answer my questions :regret:
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GuyNoir
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Ok me bad,

Post by GuyNoir » 25 Jan 2012, 16:31

Regarding

3) & 4)

Don't seem to be a problem any more, (i.e. did some tests). So if anybody was looking, sorry. (Just something I threw in, because it was weird when it did happen).

PS

Yep, they did NPR stuff on the old BBC Radio 7. Do love good word play.


PPS

For 4), I did have hold fire on the factory, it was just that the missile units that came off ignored it. However seems to have been fixed, (probably more by luck than anyone noticing - It was a fairly extreme case).

Cheers all.
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GuyNoir
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Re: Ok me bad,

Post by GuyNoir » 25 Jan 2012, 16:32

Opps, this didn't go where I wanted. Sorry. :roll:

or did it? magic.
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Johannes
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Re: Ok me bad,

Post by Johannes » 25 Jan 2012, 17:32

GuyNoir wrote:For 4), I did have hold fire on the factory, it was just that the missile units that came off ignored it. However seems to have been fixed, (probably more by luck than anyone noticing - It was a fairly extreme case).

Cheers all.
If a unit is already being built, it's not affected by changing the factorys firemode. My guess would be that that caused your problem, because I remember it always working like that without bugs.
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PicassoCT
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Re: This BAR thang...

Post by PicassoCT » 25 Jan 2012, 17:47

smoth wrote:
marciolino wrote:Since models are quite different, the physics are different, so the scripts will change. Am I wrong?
The models do not effect the physics of a unit.

But i extruded thouvandv of polygonv to add mavv to my battlemechav :(
All my work hav been invane!
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knorke
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Re: Ok me bad,

Post by knorke » 25 Jan 2012, 18:05

GuyNoir wrote:For 4), I did have hold fire on the factory, it was just that the missile units that came off ignored it. However seems to have been fixed, (probably more by luck than anyone noticing - It was a fairly extreme case).
http://springrts.com/wiki/Units-UnitDef ... Behaviours
fireState - type: int - default: -1 for units without noAutoFire, 2 otherwise
The initial firing state for the unit. Can be -1 - Inherits from factory, 0 - Hold Fire, 1 - Return Fire or 2 - Fire At Will.
maybe those units were fireState=2 instead of -1 and then it got fixed?
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