BAR story - Page 2

BAR story

Balanced Annihilation with remade Units

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KaiserJ
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Re: BAR story

Post by KaiserJ » 04 Jan 2012, 20:00

if people put the effort into contributing to spring projects that they do into analysing and detracting from them, then "BAR" would have been completed ten times over.

it's not a commercial project, it's a creative hobby provided by the few for the enjoyment of the many;

we have a 6- page "naming" thread, we have this thread, we have 40-odd pages of people complaining and squealing about bobs hard work. we have BA threads with people shitting all over the continued efforts of TFC, beherith, and many others.

nut up and make some models or animations or maps you limp-wristed-nancy-boys and let's keep the contributions solely positive.
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SirArtturi
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Re: BAR story

Post by SirArtturi » 04 Jan 2012, 20:37

Beherith wrote: Fuck you.
You are one of the worthless pieces of junk floating around here, who not only doesn't ever contribute, he feels his opinion and taste is extremely well refined and should be heeded no matter what. You are backseat/armchair everything.
Not to take any stance to the actual arguments, but moderator could do some self-moderation here :?
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Floris
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Re: BAR story

Post by Floris » 04 Jan 2012, 20:37

Kaiserj

Your post doesn't tell people how... so now your post is just another post in one of those threads you describe :p

What might help is putting feature requests with all the description and info needed to make models or how to animate models for spring. But this will only work for artwork. Coding isnt 'easy' explainable like that. You cant expect people getting involved without a (very specific) clear description of what it is you want.
Then if you manage to have a clear project request webpage, you still have to supply all the needs and info on how to exactly get those very things done. Then pick the submission that is the most practical/beautiful/desired/only one availible.

A commercial game just have a few educated experienced people working very dedicatedly closely together to get jobs done how they vision it. A relatively small open-source community doesnt have this luxury. When it wants help, better supply all the descripions, tools and tutorials with the requests for help.
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crazy dave
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Re: BAR story

Post by crazy dave » 04 Jan 2012, 20:52

Arm commander has sex with core commander.

The next morning core commander notices rust and other various oxides forming on his private area, so he gos to a local clinic to get checked out, he is diognosed with a mechanical STD

The war begins.....
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SirArtturi
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Re: BAR story

Post by SirArtturi » 04 Jan 2012, 20:53

KaiserJ ppl enjoy talking crap, that's the explanation.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: BAR story

Post by very_bad_soldier » 04 Jan 2012, 20:53

Floris wrote:You cant expect people getting involved without a (very specific) clear description of what it is and handing out the tools and how-to tutorials to acchieve those goals.
Please dont go that road of blaming the devs for people not contributing. :roll:
Also there is enough information around to get started and people will be willing to help if you have specific questions. But you will need to have initiative yourself, no doubt. Nobody said it would be easy.
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SirArtturi
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Re: BAR story

Post by SirArtturi » 04 Jan 2012, 21:07

Floris, it's not a road of roses. If you want something done, you start doing it. It's simple as that. Your worldview just dont fit in the open-source communities.

If you have money, sure you can have fancy project teams, project plans, work processess etc. but organizing in these kind of communities begins when ppl start contributing and doing actual things.

Usually talented ppl contribute, and less-talented talk crap...
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smoth
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Re: BAR story

Post by smoth » 04 Jan 2012, 21:43

Floris, I started as a nub to all this the same as everyone else...

I had to ask for a lot of help...

I asked for it, found what I needed and learned. I had less documentation than the wiki and relied entirely on asking questions.

So... expecting the devs to give you a completed defect is just an excuse. you will never have "enough" information, you will just exhaust the dev asking for more and more help until the dev snaps or gives up then you can say well, it is the dev's fault.

it really pisses me off that people like you levy such a statement as though there are not things that need finding. I could bother to list ways you could help but I would be playing into your game and frankly I don't believe you have any motivation to do any real work. Just make excuses. It is a game you are playing.
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Floris
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Re: BAR story

Post by Floris » 04 Jan 2012, 22:06

Okay if those things I proposed are worked out, it wouln't guarantee me getting fully into devving more for BAR all of a sudden. I admit. But it will be it attracktive again for me, and sure will for others.

Anyway to reply on behe's fuckyou moment to me...
Beherith wrote:
Floris wrote: BA already lacks developers who can update/improve it seriously enough and most updates occur on the fly (my perception).
Fuck you.
You are one of the worthless pieces of junk floating around here, who not only doesn't ever contribute, he feels his opinion and taste is extremely well refined and should be heeded no matter what. You are backseat/armchair everything.
"BA already lacks developers who can update/improve it seriously enough and most updates occur on the fly (my perception). "
I put "(my perception)" there for a reason. But sure nearly every time a new release is there things a broken again. While I do understand due to (i think) not enough dev's or time, e have to live ith that.

And you ignored the rest of my post too.


Also to dis-prove your statement that i didnt ever contribute....
- I did honestly tried getting into some lua widget coding but the documentation was too :/ to encourage me to getting into it more.
So I finished my "Reclaim Stopper" widget somewhat. Didn't feel to properly re-write it to make it less hacky.
- I did pop up in various threads here and there and yes, thats indeed not actual devving. But i do point out bugs, request features, try to be relevant. This was some form of contribution too.
- I just did offer monday in the BA naming thread to make a short After Effects video start/loadscreen intro when BAR of whatever its gonna be called will be executed. I asked if it was possible and desired and who would be able to implement such feature.
Last edited by Floris on 04 Jan 2012, 22:20, edited 2 times in total.
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KaiserJ
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Re: BAR story

Post by KaiserJ » 04 Jan 2012, 22:07

all necessary information required to create content for spring is available as forum stickies and wiki articles.

if you chose to create models, there will be thousands of options in terms of tutorials and example works regardless of your choice of programs. if you chose to code LUA, there is a wealth of information both internal and external to this site. If you chose to create animations, there are vast resources stretching back to the days of OTA, and recent advances with spring-specific animation tools.

any time somebody on this forum states that they want to make something, they are bombarded with helpful information from people who have some to share.

there are what... four people perhaps semi-actively working on BAR? for perspective, a quick google shows that there were more than twice that many working solely on unit models alone for supcom, a commercial game project of arguably similar scale.

the one thing NOT available is the boot in the ass that people need to contribute positively to a project or to start their own. i am a shit artist, and yet, people still request artwork from me for spring games, solely because of my willingness to contribute. what does the poor-yet-accepted quality of my work tell you about contributors to the community in general? they are practically non-existent.

TL:DR read some tutorials, offer to help, learn as you go. it would be nice if things worked as you describe but the reality of the situation could not be further from it.

edit: it's good that you've offered help, i acknowledge this
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smoth
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Re: BAR story

Post by smoth » 04 Jan 2012, 22:18

tons of people offer help to feel good. Few actually do the dull and unfun part of actual help.
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Jazcash
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Re: BAR story

Post by Jazcash » 04 Jan 2012, 22:30

smoth wrote:tons of people offer help to feel good. Few actually do the dull and unfun part of actual help.
This.
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KaiserJ
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Re: BAR story

Post by KaiserJ » 04 Jan 2012, 22:45

okay, now that we've made yelled at floris and tried to make him feel terrible about himself, and can now expect a truckload of content from him, back on topic!
When me and Kaiser started planning a campaign for ZK, it become apparent very quickly that it would be silly due to development of ZK. Our campaign would be out-of-date and non-functional within a week.
yeah i have some half-made maps and bits and pieces from that, and will certainly be interested in picking up with some sort of campaign work (likely the map bit, not the scripting or design) remembered i have a campaign map for saktoth; sort of a "climb the mountain and capture the peak" that sort of stalled at 60% ages ago from when PW first was starting (sorry man) with some nice bridges and dams etc that could be butchered into something as well. certainly i'm no longer limited so much by hardware.

defenitely still interested when the time is right.

edit: campaign maps are much easier to design IMO because they don't have to be balanced
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smoth
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Re: BAR story

Post by smoth » 04 Jan 2012, 22:55

and I don't mean to say that floris is such a person, I am just saying that all the excuses about tools, know how etc are all moot.

If someone wants to do something they will. If they have questions because they don't understand, ask and they are answered. That way people are aware of knowledge gaps to fill in the wiki.

if someone wants to model. this is not the place to ask for tutorials, there are hundreds online elsewhere...

but the lua documen...www.google.com.

how do I animat...yeah animation is complex even with tools, if the tools were so easy to work with I would have just bought max by now but fact is I don't think it is worth it.

but but professional developer.... have very limited time and have to quickly churn out art in a repeatable style. You can actually do work that is BETTER than professional. You can do it better because you can spend as long as you want to.

my work will not be as good as yours smoth because you have all this experi...nope it won't but I promise you that many people here do pretty crap. people are very happy to get anything new that isn't utter crap lol thrown together primitives

just saying, there are tons of excuses, all of them irrelevant. If you want to help you pick up a hammer and start banging. If you don't you will complain how the other guy has the company nailgun.

TL;DR. People who want to work will, people who don't, make excuses.
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Jazcash
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Re: BAR story

Post by Jazcash » 04 Jan 2012, 23:06

KaiserJ wrote: yeah i have some half-made maps and bits and pieces from that, and will certainly be interested in picking up with some sort of campaign work (likely the map bit, not the scripting or design) remembered i have a campaign map for saktoth; sort of a "climb the mountain and capture the peak" that sort of stalled at 60% ages ago from when PW first was starting (sorry man) with some nice bridges and dams etc that could be butchered into something as well. certainly i'm no longer limited so much by hardware.

defenitely still interested when the time is right.

edit: campaign maps are much easier to design IMO because they don't have to be balanced
Same here. I made two pretty neat BA missions with a neat story and popup text and all sorts of neatness. Although, Mission Maker had some bugs at the time so I couldn't get them exactly how I wanted them and there were a few other issues here and there. I would still be very happy to make new missions for BAR once it's stable and the devs are pretty certain that there will be no gameplay changes any time soon.

What makes me happy to produce random bits of content now and then is the fact that nobody expects it and nobody has asked for it. Once somebody expects something from you, it becomes a lot less appealing to the producer and a lot less satisfying. It tends to feel more like work.
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AF
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Re: BAR story

Post by AF » 04 Jan 2012, 23:57

Floris clearly didnt load up the links I posted and actually read the short piece of text and the previous and afterwards storyboards. I agree with Beherith. Armchair.

The Con we would only need to model a single unit, for which we have a pretty nice concept already thanks to Niklass. They can be a self duplicating 1 unit mini race that gets put in chickens or as random gaia units in missions.

The crab like race we can keep, just say that they were wiped out not long after the events described in the story and retreated into unknown space far far away from the spring engine. If you want a handful of them can be put in as chickens, say some suiciders wanting vengeance for crimes against their race.

I say we can do cutscenes for a nice storyboard using the models ingame + knorkes poser to do B+W Homeworld style cutscenes where its mostly moving static images save for a handful of blinking lights and other effects. I'd be happy to do it myself once we have sufficient models ( need textured core commander )
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HectorMeyer
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Re: BAR story

Post by HectorMeyer » 05 Jan 2012, 00:23

Since when is being a (interested and enthusiastic) end-user (with an opinion and feedback) a crime?
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Johannes
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Re: BAR story

Post by Johannes » 05 Jan 2012, 00:26

Beherith wrote:
Floris wrote: BA already lacks developers who can update/improve it seriously enough and most updates occur on the fly (my perception).
Fuck you.
You are one of the worthless pieces of junk floating around here, who not only doesn't ever contribute, he feels his opinion and taste is extremely well refined and should be heeded no matter what. You are backseat/armchair everything.
Way to make people want to contribute, as if people needed to somehow qualify themselves to others before they're allowed to have or voice an opinion. To qualify themselves in some other manner than just presenting good arguments, more specifically.

If someone makes a bad argument, rebut it by something else than ad hominem maybe? Or if it feels something's obviously idiotic to anyone, might be best to just ignore it.

Also, contributing and having a good taste don't necessarily correlate all that much. The visions of those who contribute will be followed because well, they make the things happen (according to their own taste), not because their opinions are somehow innately better.
And it would be silly to not give an impression that you have a good taste, who's gonna listen to you if it seems even you don't trust yourself?
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smoth
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Re: BAR story

Post by smoth » 05 Jan 2012, 00:41

Johannes wrote:Way to make people want to contribute, as if people needed to somehow qualify themselves to others before they're allowed to have or voice an opinion.
way to beat a dead horse rather than contribute something new.
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Funkencool
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Re: BAR story

Post by Funkencool » 05 Jan 2012, 04:50

As of late I thought it was time to finally learn the skills I've been wanting to learn for so long. Hence I've been working on maps, modeling, some primitive scripting, and lua in general; but my contributions are still far from contributions. I'm sure I'll be popping into the forums soon enough for help once I've covered all the tutorials.

Getting back to the original topic, I would love to see some new story along with the new look and name and personally I think, with some minor changes, Niklas concept would work wonderfully. The only thing is it still contains the CORE and ARM so we'd just need some good name suggestions to replace them. And as far the Ext go, I agree they would make wonderful chickens; But the Con would actually be a cool and simple third faction IMO.

I can picture a third faction based around quantity rather than quality with less diversity( in a way similar to the zerg). I think I might actually get my sh*t together and start working on something like that, or would a third faction be shut down right away?
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