SpringLobby - please implement !join - Page 4

SpringLobby - please implement !join

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gajop
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by gajop » 07 Feb 2012, 11:35

danil_kalina wrote:but other people "don't have time" to fix that.
and yet if 1% of the text here was converted to code it would've been implemented
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hoijui
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by hoijui » 07 Feb 2012, 12:49

there is no body of standardization, becuase all the lobby devs SUCK. you licho, are one of the lobby devs, you suck, you are part of the reason of fail. all lobby devs should form the body of standardization. i todl you what exactly is wrogn wiht the way you do it, and you just repeat it (in different words), and saz it is not wrong, without giving any explanation why it woudl not be. it IS wrong!
it is wrong casue you decide, and tell otehrs to implement. that makes you the body of standardization, and it is very understandable that others do not want to comply, because they usually see flaws in your approach (this is why SL did never implement rapid or the other stuff you wanted them to implement). you just did not understand the very basics of cooperation in an online community, as it seems.
if you want the change, and the propper body of standardization is way to unorganized to get it to do anything, you have to organize it first, and then changes can be done. you just decided you know things best anyway, so you just do and others should follow. that can not work, and as can be seen now, does not, in practise. it is good that it does not, and you should change.
and i agree that i am part of the problem of lobby deving, because if i would have pushed SpringLS a but more, we could indeed be in a better situation now, but still, the body of standardization is the key, and it can not be worked around with coding. it is required. and there i can say that i tried, what nobody else did, and it did not fail because of me.
it sounds quite simple, and for engine devs, it also was relatively simple, and worked qutie well form the beginning. talk is about having regular meetings.
maybe you should just use the same time as engine dev meeting, and do it every week. it once was sunday evening, now it is monday evening, CET 21:30.
lets have a vote here (lobby devs only, obviously), if this time is ok for you, and if not, give a few alternatives.
so for now, i propose:
* Sunday, 21:30 CET
* Monday 21:30 CET

dont worry about stuff like "this is too often" for now. you may decide that in one of the first meetings.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho » 07 Feb 2012, 12:58

I already gave up on this hoi. I tried contacting lobby devs individually and aegis for server, it always worked. That way i can explain the proposal without endless argues and talks.
I think its better than pre-planned meetings.

Its only natural that person who builds the system proposes the structure. Aegis said he will implement support in server but it will take time, when its in server it will be switched to proper protocol.
Meanwhile all i asked for is simple change which most lobbies implemented and even SL didnt have any formal complaints. Except for "opt-in" which i think explained enough why this is impossible.

As for rapid .. i think you are mistaken .. there never were any formal complaints. SL devs just didnt have enough time to implement it..
Rapid exists in many active implementations: zkl, standalone+gui, tasclient its built into engine and works stable for over 3 years .. with 1 change - changing url of master repo during all this time.

As I see it problem is dev capacity.

Rapid case is actually excellent case which shows how slowly updated lobby slows down the progress..
There never was any complaints about method - and now its almost too late when its implemented in so many places ..

So why does SL not implement rapid?
Dev capacity.
And what it causes?
Slow progress, annoying and unreliable full mod downloads and slow dev cycle and wasted hd space of users.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho » 07 Feb 2012, 13:04

Btw I hack arout SL as long as its possible - to support rapid mods for SL users.. there is a special project running on server called auto registrator which makes stable sdz of all mods available for legacy downloader..

It exists ONLY for SL users as others can probably use rapid for faster downloads.

In this case SL cannot be hacked around.
Last edited by Licho on 07 Feb 2012, 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 13:05

Are devs meetings in channels ? ( NotaLobby doesn't support channels yet :roll: )
what channel ?

We have UTC+04:00 - how to convert it to CET ?
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Anarchid
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Anarchid » 07 Feb 2012, 13:08

Well CheeseLobby did that..but it has been cancelled and I'm now working on a lobby that will probably never be finished but has those things planned.
NotaLobby and WebLobby are still available though.
NotaLobby doesn't support channels yet
So, as for a linux user, kicking SL out would force me to either abandon chat channels, or abandon the whole idea of a desktop lobby at all.

Well, that, or maintain ZKL for at least my distro (which i might, but then might not, time being such an ugly thing)
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gajop
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by gajop » 07 Feb 2012, 13:57

Anarchid wrote:
Well CheeseLobby did that..but it has been cancelled and I'm now working on a lobby that will probably never be finished but has those things planned.
NotaLobby and WebLobby are still available though.
NotaLobby doesn't support channels yet
So, as for a linux user, kicking SL out would force me to either abandon chat channels, or abandon the whole idea of a desktop lobby at all.

Well, that, or maintain ZKL for at least my distro (which i might, but then might not, time being such an ugly thing)
Even with all complains about SL, it's still the best lobby for linux from what I can see. (Nota has no chats as you said and weblobby doesn't use unitsync iirc, meaning no way to find out if you have mods/maps)
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 14:03

gajop wrote:Even with all complains about SL, it's still the best lobby for linux from what I can see. (Nota has no chats as you said and weblobby doesn't use unitsync iirc, meaning no way to find out if you have mods/maps)
NotaLobby will support chats and channels about in a week or two :roll:
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gajop
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by gajop » 07 Feb 2012, 14:11

danil_kalina wrote: NotaLobby will support chats and channels about in a week or two :roll:
Didn't mean that as a bash of your work btw, you've been doing great stuff in such short time and hope you continue to do so.
Going offtopic a bit but..
Still some stuff that would be required for a full switch (from your notalobby page):
- Host battle
- Single-player
- Replays
- Lobby settings
- Spring Engine settings
PS: Do you use rapid ?(that's the only reason I'd switch, and that's the only reason ZKL is better than springlobby)
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 14:20

gajop wrote: - Host battle
- Single-player
- Replays
- Lobby settings
- Spring Engine settings
We need to evaluate the complexity
gajop wrote:PS: Do you use rapid ?(that's the only reason I'd switch, and that's the only reason ZKL is better than springlobby)
No. We wanted to embed Plasma Search Plugin. But now we realize that it is the last century.
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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan » 07 Feb 2012, 14:27

danil_kalina wrote:
Cheesecan wrote:Licho you are the main obstacle in the way of progress.
Why he is an obstacle ?

He invented so much. He is ahead of the rest planet.

As I understood right, He suggests many things, but other people "don't have time" to fix that.
Well someone can be both very productive and an otherwise awesome asset to a community but also very counter-productive at the same time.

The background is that the lobby server fell behind during the rise of autohosts, ZK and lobby feature demands from various people. So people just hacked together whatever they could instead of building a good foundation for future work.

Problem symptoms of this include:
  • Players are writing game setup commands into the chat. A 6v6 room looks like IRC, not a game.
  • People are popping up on the forums yelling 'you didn't implement my design!'
  • Lobby features are diverging more and more.
  • New players don't understand commands, can't participate.
Solutions would be:
  • Standardize protocol and include new features there instead.
  • Make GUI handle command passing and remove that stuff altogheter from chat.
Think I'm wrong? Consider this; AAA-games don't have people writing !nextmap in the chat to switch maps. If quality and community growth is the whole goal then things need to be revised.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 14:50

You say right.
He implemented Autohost commands. They are useful for experienced players. And Server-side team should implement that commands in Protocol gradually.
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hoijui
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by hoijui » 07 Feb 2012, 15:37

no licho.. you just did the same thing again. repeast what i said in differnt words, and say it is not wrong. it is still wrong.
it still just you beeing lazy to do it the proper way, casue you would have to argue, and cause the final solution would not be exactly as you wanted it.
if you had a regular meeting, and people would not join, and every lobby dev woudl know about the meeting, and would have a chance to request a different time, and.. you know, just generally be reasonable about this ...
then you would have the basis for standardization. you could have a rule that at least 50% or so of all devs would have to be present for a vote to be valid, and then decissiosn would actually become at least soemwhat fair and acceptable. it would be so easy, it works well in engine dev. your way DOES NOT WORK!
having code at the end that does not crash and does what you think it should do is NOT a reasonable measure!
how can it not be obvious to anybody that you are abusing your power, when you decide alone, or at max in a talk with aegis?
"nobody complained" because they were not around, did not know about it, or you jsut did not accept their complaint as valid.
it just does nto work, and i know for sure that the rapid thing wiht SL did not go as you described it.
rapid was done by ZK guys alone, and if someone wants to change it, he has to ask ZK guys, and if they think it is ok, it might be done, else not.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 15:43

hoijui wrote:then you would have the basis for standardization. you could have a rule that at least 50% or so of all devs would have to be present for a vote to be valid, and then decissiosn would actually become at least soemwhat fair and acceptable. it would be so easy, it works well in engine dev. your way DOES NOT WORK!
having code at the end that does not crash and does what you think it should do is NOT a reasonable measure!
I like
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho » 07 Feb 2012, 16:21

First there was no downloader.

Because CA updated too often, there was a need for some incremental updats and data resuse.
First downloaders for CA was based on rsync and svn and they were not meant as universal.

Then det invented rapid system and coded server side support for it and modified engine to read rapid. Rapid was always meant for all spring related content. Supported dependencies, tags etc.
First client for rapid client was made by me for springdownloader. From start it supported range of mods that were updating rapidly.
SL didnt implement it - perhaps it was not important at that time because only major mod using it was CA back then.
Tobi made a client for it and server runs on springrts.com - people who tinker with server parts are mostly det or CarRepairer.


*Then came first attempt at torrent based p2p/server assisted map downloader.
It was designed by me and featured special tracker with protocol similar to lobby server.
SL implemented it.
(*actual order might be different, im not sure whether catracker was before rapid or not, maybe it was)

This system turned out to be slow and inefficient, during major rewrite some time later it was changed to what is now "plasma" service. SL updated to use it and I keep format compatible to not break it.

So why didnt SL implement rapid? It would be interesting to hear that? When I talked with devs I always get answers like sure when we get time or if you provide patch sure.

I made many custom/special things that SL implemented - catracker, plasma server, hashes exceptions.

On the other hand Rapid is the most official part! Its endorsed by many devs, has many independent clients, its part of engine, its run on springrts.com domain, its not maintained by me.
Its the only part which I dont directly control!
So the story about "ZK guys controlling it" does not stand.
Im the only person who maintains plasma server on the other hand, and update it often, why this was implemented in SL?

The answer imo is:
* the SL devs benefit from plasma more (maps downloader) they didnt need rapid for what they played (BA, S44)
* rapid is more complicated

Btw this way of "who makes it defines it" is pretty norm, it cant be the other way around. ZKL also implemented special tourney rules and other exceptions created by others.
I dont see anything bad on it.
If you make something why you should spend months talking about interface instead of coding it? Most often people have no clue .. its better to implement it, try few tings and then ask others for comments and implementation when its done than to spend months talking about interfaces and doing nothing.

Remember the story about custom parameter for lobby? Weeks spent talking, nothing gets done, after 1 year I implement it myself above protocol. What else should I do?
You cannot force people to work on their parts..
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho » 07 Feb 2012, 16:29

And dont even start about autohosts..
when i made the first autohost - springie .. it was like 5 years ago maybe?

The major lobby was tasclient and afaik it readilly got some interface for springie commands.
Spads then reused many of springie commands.

Back then autohosts were complicated things, there was no dedicated server, springie run actual windowed spring, hid window, hacked keypresses in to transmit chat etc..

It wasnt even clear what commands should be and they were added adhoc as it was demanded. I cant imagine some pre-planning session for that lol..

Springie even had windowed interface like another lobby (yes it supported even channels and PM ;-) And you could directly chat from there or control games using its gui.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina » 07 Feb 2012, 16:30

Licho wrote:If you make something why you should spend months talking about interface instead of coding it? Most often people have no clue .. its better to implement it, try few tings and then ask others for comments and implementation when its done than to spend months talking about interfaces and doing nothing.
nice :!:

So 1:1

Round 2...
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho » 07 Feb 2012, 17:02

I didnt make the point with springie clear, i was in time pressure.

Basically before springie there was modified tasc lobby which could perform some autohosting functions. It had !start and !ring for example.

I didnt spend weeks arguying with all people who feel entitled to talk about lobby protocol, I simply reused those commands and added new for springie.

Spads did the same.

I can imagine that if we were to agree with all people who do something lobby related, it would make the process painful, unpleasant and perhaps we would still be arguying.

Imagine you agree on protocol and next day you realize you need extra command !addbox or extra parameter for !split .. and now you need assembly, lengthy agreements, gradual phasing in of changes .. you need to convince all peers, even those who are not involved in autohsots but only run some answer bot..
It makes process pain. I know it from my work.


In CA/ZK dev team we tried many ways to organize work. We had anarchy, we had dictatorship, we had specialist bosses for areas, we had direct democracy with polls .. eventually we settled with what worked best - meritocracy. If you want to decide something: make it. Maker always has the veto rule. Without this maker is only demotivated and basically forced to do something he/she dislikes.

Im not saying there arent argues, but makers always realize that ultimately its their call. I wont force unit looks on artist because I cant do it myself.

I think this approach is pretty successfull ZK dev team is cohesive with very high activity over many years, more stable than spring engine devs.

And windfall from the project has always been big. .. team made first autohost, map downloader system, chickens, many widgets you now treat as normal - like custom formations, LUPS or chili framework, zero-k lobby (actually we had 3 different lobby attempts!), planetwars, rapid .. juggler is just another thing on the long line.

So I think meritocracy works great and maybe I hit the wall here. People are probably not used to "maker decides" approach.
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koshi
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by koshi » 07 Feb 2012, 17:41

If you think meritocracy means dictatorship of the maker you should consult another dictionary.

Edit: Also, that would only apply if you were the maker of every server implementation we have, because those actually define the protocol. Not the clients. However much you want it differently.
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Satirik
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Satirik » 07 Feb 2012, 18:07

don't worry licho : koshi, AF, forb, neddy, argh (im probably missing someone) = same fight, even if i don't like everything you've done, most of it made spring a LOT better so, in the name of all spring players : thank you
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