SpringLobby - please implement !join - Page 3

SpringLobby - please implement !join

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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina »

youhoooo, we all suck :D
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Licho
Zero-K Developer
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 19:13

Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

Well I will wait couple of weeks for SL (or server protocol change, i dont really care about form, all i care about is result), and then recommend people to use other lobbies and block SL. There are 3 other working lobbies to choose from.
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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan »

Don't think it is that easy to make people stop using SL.
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Anarchid
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Anarchid »

There are 3 other working lobbies to choose from.
Which of those three lobbies:
1) work under Linux?
2) AND support chat channels?
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

Cheesecan wrote:Don't think it is that easy to make people stop using SL.
More important is protecting all other players from side effects of incompatile lobby.
Its imo a bad idea to let 80% suffer because of 20% who can switch.

Its not nice to ask people to switch but i dont see any other solution :(
Axiomatic
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Joined: 20 Jan 2011, 04:17

Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Axiomatic »

Blocking Springlobby seems to be just a punishment for not supporting something which should never have been mandatory anyway. It's not part of the protocol and there's no consensus support for it either.

There're plenty of players who simply don't want to take part and if they're moved they'll leave the new immediately anyway.

Why can't match-matching be opt-in? For example: have clients pm "!match-making on" to a bot when joining the server.
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knorke
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by knorke »

...supporting something which should never have been mandatory anyway. It's not part of the protocol and there's no consensus support for it either.
Autohosts and their commands like !addbox !split etc are not part of the official protocol either. But some lobbies add buttons so you do not have to type those things but instead can can click stuff.
In the end players will decide what they want..
eg the zK matchmaking seems only to be for zK. You can select 1v1,team,ffa but it is all for zK. I see no option to select the game? eg KP, CT or whatever. I asume all the zK-players use zK lobby (except some on linux with SL?) so it will work for most anyway..
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hoijui
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by hoijui »

i totally agree with Axiomatic.
you decided to go your own way, because you were too lazy to go the proper way (cause it is fucking pain, cause you know.. all lobby devs suck, and therefore to get them together and agree on something.. go figure!).
exactly because of this decission, you have no right to punish anybody else. if your 80% people suffer, as you put it, then it is because of your choice, and to flip the switch is just being an asshole. in a way you could say, the choice back then was already being an asshole, because it resulted in people suffering (and that was forseeable). and yes, it is your fault, not anyone elses for not adopting a standard that you designed and declared as such yourself alone. if you decide to flip the switch, it is 100% clear absue of power. it would be very much MS style reigning (coincidence? ;-) ).
this is one of the big cancers of IT. you are one of the bad rays, going with the flow, causing IT (cancer)! may the god of the byte have mercy on your ethernal, virtual soul!
let's come together, brothers and susters of the propper way of standardization, and let's sacrifice a gnu, and pait ourselfs red with it's blod, for that it's spirit goes into us, and may guide us through the valley of darkness they call the great unity winter, which infected so many of our fellow comrades desktops.
and... brother Picasso, join me!
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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan »

Anarchid wrote:
There are 3 other working lobbies to choose from.
Which of those three lobbies:
1) work under Linux?
2) AND support chat channels?
Well CheeseLobby did that..but it has been cancelled and I'm now working on a lobby that will probably never be finished but has those things planned.

NotaLobby and WebLobby are still available though.
Licho wrote:
Cheesecan wrote:Don't think it is that easy to make people stop using SL.
More important is protecting all other players from side effects of incompatile lobby.
Its imo a bad idea to let 80% suffer because of 20% who can switch.

Its not nice to ask people to switch but i dont see any other solution :(
Then set up a way to change the protocol for your new features. Otherwise lobby devs need to play catch up everytime someone has a new feature idea based on passing messages to clients. I mean that is not a good way, the rest of us have to vacuum the forum+wiki+your source code to find out about it and implement it they way you want. If you want to standardize something make it central and mandatory(enforced) by protocol.

I think the SpringLS concept is the way to go for a better solution, it is supposed to be extensible so that you can add these type of features easily. As a C# dev contributing a OSGi bundle for SpringLS is not a huge discomfort for you. But also hoijui is too busy/lazy to finish what he started(gotcha hoijui :P) plus he doesn't want to take up the fight against uberserver, so we are stuck with uberserver forever and nothing will ever progress. Just enjoy the situation and stop whining, make your lobby, ignore the rest. :mrgreen:
hoijui wrote:i totally agree with Axiomatic.
you decided to go your own way, because you were too lazy to go the proper way (cause it is fucking pain, cause you know.. all lobby devs suck, and therefore to get them together and agree on something.. go figure!).
Well I can't really disagree :oops: When I started CheeseLobby I was not serious, now I see the flaw in how lobbies work. Lobby developers will never want to cooperate on a single lobby because every lobby is coded in a different language and developers have their preferences and feel they have something better, time invested, no incentive, etc. This is why the protocol should be the part where lobby devs cooperate since it is the only place they could feel is neutral ground.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

Knorke - juggler is game neutral.
Basically there are lineages of autohosts and it picks lineage of autohost not caring about what game it hosts.
Autohost lineages are marked internally to which class they belong.

That means if someone wants to make say gundam autohost and asks to participate in this scheme, there will be new option:
1v1
teams
ffa
planetwars
gundam teams

Each lineage of autohosts has independent rules for balancing, when to start, limits etc.


Hoi - there is no "body of standardization" .. I talked to lobby devs, they agreed and implemented it. Just SL devs never officially responded to me. You cannot have progress this way.
Its not an abuse of power, its just making sure service works as planned. Its like telling people with IE4 to upgrade because they cannot see the web properly.
In this case they not only not see web properly, they also make the web crash and burn randomly for all others :)
Last edited by Licho on 07 Feb 2012, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

So if you have game and want to be part of this matchmaking system, just let me know. Accepting only OS games to avoid issues with advertising.

Each autohost lineage can be made from existing springie type autohost, it needs following extra information:
* rapid tag for auto mod update
* engine branch for auto engine update (dont have to specify)
* player balancing rules (elo, lobby rank, clans..)
* map selection (can use information/tags from http://zero-k.info/maps ) - rules can be based on players. For example FFA lineage picks map based on players. PW based on ships.
* min/max players for suitable game.
* max elo difference
* split players limit - if there are people above this limit it splits game into 2 based on elo

You can also customize commands allowed there etc.
Last edited by Licho on 07 Feb 2012, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Beherith
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Beherith »

I spec some zk games from time to time, and its wierd to see how aggressively the bots try to rip me from the game im speccing and putting me into a different one.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina »

What is matchmaking system ?

Ok. I am not clear with the parts. make bigger answer, tell us more, thanks.
Last edited by danil_kalina on 07 Feb 2012, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

Beherith wrote:I spec some zk games from time to time, and its wierd to see how aggressively the bots try to rip me from the game im speccing and putting me into a different one.
I disabled this now. It was happening if you specced ingame but were as a player in lobby. System assumed you want to play some other game and you wait for it while speccing.

ZK users will have button to allow this while they spec.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

danil_kalina wrote:What is matchmaking system ?
On request for more detailed information

There are 3 main components to it:

* springie multiautohost - this is tasked with maintaining lobby server connections, creating battle rooms and running dedicated servers

* ZK website - this maintains user preferences in database, allows users to set their own preference. It also contains information about springie lineages and whether lineage is part of juggler system. For each lineage players can pick one of 4 prefernece values: never, ok, like, best

* ZK website springie interface (part of ZK website) - this provides centralized service for springies, such as balancing, picking maps, deciding whether to start. It also contains the juggler itself.
Benefit of using central place is that it has information from ZK database, including player game history, clanmates, elo, map tags etc and it can be updated quickly.

Some calls and exchanges:

- springie starts and queries web inerface about what lineages it
should host. Each springie has "cluster node" so that different springies can host different lineages - atm there is just one springie running.

- springies creates lineages and makes sure each one has one empty battle room at all times

- springie asks server how to balance people or what map to pick periodically and on each user command. Server knows what lineage it is and alters responses.

- on timer or when game ends on springie, juggler is invoked - springie sends "contexts" of all lobby rooms including ingame contexts to juggler - so juggler knows details about all autohosts including who is actually playing etc. Juggler sends back list of instructions like: move player X to game Y, destroy game Z, create game W

- springie executes the commands by sending !join commands to players from autohosts where they currently are.

Key source codes are here:
http://code.google.com/p/zero-k/source/ ... eInterface
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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan »

Licho you are the main obstacle in the way of progress. Your not wanting to change things is the main problem here. To be honest I think lobby devs should not go through withyour features in protest so that a better solution can be reached. The more time you invested into it the harder it will be to change.
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koshi
Lobby Developer
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by koshi »

Licho: The service can be opt-in. You choose to not make it opt-in.
If it was opt-in there would be no new reason to get people to stop SL. You don't like SL because we don't cave to your every bidding. You can dangle the "everything's-currently-running-on-my-box" card at any time, even without saying anything.
Me personally, I'm a cynic, so my conclusions are pretty dark here, but I'm sure there's a happy spin on this.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

There cannot be opt-in in lobby itself!

I tried to explain that so many many times..

Basically if there is opt-in in lobby, juggler cannot plan, it does not know how many people will actually agree to be moved. So the created game could fail - like have only 2 people for teams game...
Or 1 for 1v1.. (Which is exactly the issue with SL NOW!)

Eventually all people would disable it because it was failing too often.

Instead there is opt-in on the website - you can set preferences to never.

In that case juggler only moves you within same game type you already joined - mainly to manage overflow of people and split games into two.

So there are 2 major opt-outs:
- dont join juggled rooms
- set preferences to never

However there cnanot be opt-in in lobby (asking user every time) because it breaks whole principle and makes it impossible to work.
It has to know before asking.

However atm SL users are joining juggled rooms and break the algo .. thats where im having the issue.
Last edited by Licho on 07 Feb 2012, 11:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Licho
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Licho »

Cheesecan wrote:Licho you are the main obstacle in the way of progress. Your not wanting to change things is the main problem here. To be honest I think lobby devs should not go through withyour features in protest so that a better solution can be reached. The more time you invested into it the harder it will be to change.
WHAT?? Nobody ever requested me to change anything, ZKL complements uberserver protocol more than any other lobby (dunno other lobby that uses stuff like engine extension) ..
Im certainly not the one refusing to change things.
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danil_kalina
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by danil_kalina »

Cheesecan wrote:Licho you are the main obstacle in the way of progress.
Why he is an obstacle ?

He invented so much. He is ahead of the rest planet.

As I understood right, He suggests many things, but other people "don't have time" to fix that.
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