SpringLobby - please implement !join - Page 8

SpringLobby - please implement !join

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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan » 13 Feb 2012, 16:35

very_bad_soldier wrote:
hoijui wrote: best thing is, to have lots of lobbies, and support all of them as well as possible, and over time, some of them will vanish anyway. this is open source, it does not work like ...
Sorry, but I do not agree here at all. The last couple of years proved that it does not work for us. Each vanished project is wasted effort and sad for us. We have a bunch of lobbies, mods, widgets, etc. Even multiple lobby servers. Most of them run and maintained by single persons. Sorry to say, but in my opinion some of those one-man-projects are not in a good shape. For example we dont need 20 mods, we just need 3-4 proper ones.
I do not speak about forcing anything on anyone but maybe someone wants to ask himself if he really wants to start another one of those one-man-projects instead of joining an existing team to make it stronger.
Well, as I said, no offense, just my opinion. I dont really expect to be able to change someones opinion here, so nvm. Sorry for the derail.
I disagree somewhat. It's always a sign of a healthy project when there are multiple developers. But diversity is also a good thing. The scarcity of users, maintainers and developers is a general problem for the community, but we can't hope to solve that by overinvesting in things that have proven to be unsuccessful in the sense that players are still dwindling and only one project(ZK) is still bringing them in, barely. I for one would rather see 10 new games than 10 new developers on BA. When it comes to coding, adding more developers doesn't necessarily mean quality improvement or faster development. As hoijui said it's better to have many and see which ones emerge as the best.

Currently almost every lobby is for a different programming language than the next. Therefore cross-recruiting of developers is pretty hard since programmers are creatures of habit. For instance I moved to scala now, this basically reduced any future chances of getting contributors by 80%(just a guess, but since they say 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot, why not) because that is not a popular language around here.

Additionally, you have to take into consideration peoples personal motivation and egos. Someone who just joined a lobby project will have a hard time making structural changes, even if they are well-motivated. As this thread has shown, some people here have bigger egos than others and won't listen to anyone else because they think they are always right. Although say, x(won't name) is one of the better lobbies we have right now, even despite many years of development and multiple developers, it still cannot even sort the channel userlist properly, or sort games by players properly. Simple things like this are very large deterrents because they indicate some foundational issues which most programmers don't like and will avoid. Additionally any program that has shown to be hard for the lead developer to fix bugs in is even harder for any contributor. If there was a really good lobby, semi-professional quality, then you'd see more contibutors attracted because people want to "hop on the good boat" so to speak. But currently most of the more experienced developers are tied up in engine development, so it's no surprise this is not the case.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by very_bad_soldier » 13 Feb 2012, 17:52

Cheesecan wrote: It's always a sign of a healthy project when there are multiple developers.
You are considering spring a healthy project? Even because of the numerous one-man-projects that will probably all be gone in 365 days? Hell, I do not.
Cheesecan wrote: The scarcity of users, maintainers and developers is a general problem for the community, but we can't hope to solve that by overinvesting in things that have proven to be unsuccessful in the sense that players are still dwindling and only one project(ZK) is still bringing them in, barely.
ZK kinda proves my point I guess. The only halfway successful project (that doesnt rely on TA heritage) is also the only project that successfully gathered a dev team which seems to be really working together. Coincident?
Cheesecan wrote: Additionally, you have to take into consideration peoples personal motivation and egos.
Yeah I know, I guess thats probably the main reason why people are not willing to join other people's project and start their career there as a "peasant". They prefer having their own project even if it is not long lasting.
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gajop
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by gajop » 13 Feb 2012, 18:17

very_bad_soldier wrote:
Cheesecan wrote: It's always a sign of a healthy project when there are multiple developers.
You are considering spring a healthy project? Even because of the numerous one-man-projects that will probably all be gone in 365 days? Hell, I do not.
And why is that? "Spring", the engine part is healthy, it's been alive for a while and is actively maintained. There are some small mods that may die out, but that can't be helped if those people aren't interested in forming teams, which is their right after all, as some have their own vision they want to fulfill or simply want to model the units themselves f.e.
very_bad_soldier wrote:
Cheesecan wrote: The scarcity of users, maintainers and developers is a general problem for the community, but we can't hope to solve that by overinvesting in things that have proven to be unsuccessful in the sense that players are still dwindling and only one project(ZK) is still bringing them in, barely.
ZK kinda proves my point I guess. The only halfway successful project (that doesnt rely on TA heritage) is also the only project that successfully gathered a dev team which seems to be really working together. Coincident?
But ZK didn't just drop out of the sky, did it? It used to be called CA if i'm not wrong, and I don't know if it was one person that started it, but I can bet that the team grew over time as the interest for the project grew, and that same thing could be applicable to any of the currently small projects that show promise.
very_bad_soldier wrote:
Cheesecan wrote: Additionally, you have to take into consideration peoples personal motivation and egos.
Yeah I know, I guess thats probably the main reason why people are not willing to join other people's project and start their career there as a "peasant". They prefer having their own project even if it is not long lasting.
There is often more than that. As far as programming goes, there are often technical reasons new projects are created. They include 1) better (higher abstractions), safer or faster languages, 2) cross-platform and platform-specific tools & languages, 3) usage of different download architectures and so on.

F.e I started a new mission editor (WIP), even though I knew full well quantum created one for zero-k. Reason I decided not to go with improving the existing one? I wanted it to be cross-platform & in-game.

And sometimes it's better to simply throw away the code and rewrite it from scratch rather than to try and work on an old project (comment not related with my new editor).
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by very_bad_soldier » 13 Feb 2012, 19:01

You are right when you say there are good reasons for some projects to get started because existing projects just did not cut it. Also it is not true for a lot of other projects. It is still everyone's right to start a new *A-mod when he feels the flash tank absolutely has to have 320 health instead of 300 though. :)
gajop wrote:
very_bad_soldier wrote: ZK kinda proves my point I guess. The only halfway successful project (that doesnt rely on TA heritage) is also the only project that successfully gathered a dev team which seems to be really working together. Coincident?
But ZK didn't just drop out of the sky, did it? It used to be called CA if i'm not wrong, and I don't know if it was one person that started it, but I can bet that the team grew over time as the interest for the project grew, and that same thing could be applicable to any of the currently small projects that show promise.
Nice bet, but IIRC: quite wrong.
They had a good team of talented devs for such a long time (literally years) when it even was still called CA and had no players. They invested, dunno, hundreds (thousands?) of man hours into it to get it where it is. Now finally, they managed to get some popularity. Ask Licho where ZK would be today if he would have had to develop ZK alone for all the years.
So clearly, the team was there, then the popularity. Not the other way round.
Maybe someone else can give better details to the history of ZK, I only know some rough data.
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smoth
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by smoth » 13 Feb 2012, 19:16

gajop wrote:
very_bad_soldier wrote:
Cheesecan wrote: It's always a sign of a healthy project when there are multiple developers.
You are considering spring a healthy project? Even because of the numerous one-man-projects that will probably all be gone in 365 days? Hell, I do not.
And why is that? "Spring", the engine part is healthy, it's been alive for a while and is actively maintained. There are some small mods that may die out, but that can't be helped if those people aren't interested in forming teams, which is their right after all, as some have their own vision they want to fulfill or simply want to model the units themselves f.e.
Nice speculation you have there. Most projects that do not have teams or lack team members do so not because they want to do everything them self but because of a lack of available usable talent. Projects demand a certain level of quality, not everyone is capable of that. To say that is/was just a choice, no it really isn't. To date, 2 people have enough trust to access my svn, ZWZSG and KDR_11k. The rest can just look or they have enough to do(IE LICHO).

What is this talk about all the one man projects that will be gone in 365 days? I have been at GRTS since dec 2004
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by very_bad_soldier » 13 Feb 2012, 19:23

smoth wrote: What is this talk about all the one man projects that will be gone in 365 days? I have been at GRTS since dec 2004
Thats why you are so awesome! Most of the "IMA NOUNCING MA PROJECT"-guys dont even come close to your level of motivation/passion.
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smoth
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by smoth » 13 Feb 2012, 19:32

I should not be the exception. I am not a remarkable person in any way.

My whole rage over what I have done VS others is because I see others as much more talented/having higher potential than myself.

So my belief is that if I can do it.. so can anyone..

Look at picasso, he has begun to to take his seemingly drug fueled insanity and pour it into something creative that is now living and breathing in engine.. or what about fang? that guy did good work! There are many exceptional individuals! Zwzsg opens his book of sorcery summoning up the fey spirits and conjures amazing stuff, so did KDR, and don't get me started on lurker or aegis, two very talented sleepers in the community.

I am not all THAT talented, just obsessive, I have some kind of physical anomaly which leaves my brain stuck in a constant state of pedal to the floor. That is ALL, I am just incapable of putting something down unless I pick something else up, I am not EVEN genius level. Talking to some of the people here leaves me to conclude we have at LEAST a good few genius level intelligence individuals.

I have seen YOU do good things! What are you working on now? I bet you could be conjuring stuff up!
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hoijui
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by hoijui » 13 Feb 2012, 19:43

VBS, many devs working together on one thing can achieve more then the same ammount of devs, all trying to do the same thing on their own. but we can not choose between one or the other, therefore all you are saying is useless. if one project is really good then more devs will join, else not. reducing the ammount of projects or.. basically anythign else then having just a very good project does not work at all in any way that you want it. having more projects enlarges the possibility that one of them is gonna be good, and that more devs will join it. if they don't, then it is not good enough. of course this is not a 0 or 1 kind of thing. it is natural, and very complex, as there are humans involved, and it dpends on what they like, what they are capable of, whether they cna understand some code or concept, ... but there is just nothign you cna be aganst here.. i mean.. it makes no sense to disagree with anything in the way you seem to think of it. it is not about different beliefs. its just that you have some kind of theory which is based on assumptions which you yourself kind of agree are purely fictional.
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Cheesecan
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by Cheesecan » 13 Feb 2012, 21:15

Hopefully the community will grow so more contributors will gravitate toward promising projects. IMHO we have pretty good lobbies already (for windows) so what remains is to have a solid crossplatform lobby. That's why I started. If there was an awesome linux lobby already I would have probably never bothered to start and just gone on making maps or contributing nothing(playing). In other words it's not a zero sum game..for every one-man/woman project that is started you may have ½ person who would ordinarily not have contributed anything else otherwise.
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smoth
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Re: SpringLobby - please implement !join

Post by smoth » 13 Feb 2012, 21:21

1/2 is a bit generous.
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