Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

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8611z
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Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by 8611z » 16 Dec 2015, 09:48

If you are serious about this:
wiki page on github wrote:Licenses
(...)
Art should also be distributed under a liberal license. The default license is CC-BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/), any the users are suggested to avoid any licenses that might prevent further development in their absence (e.g. CC-BY-ND, CC-BY-NC).
then watch where your audio files come from.
https://github.com/SpringCabal/LD34/blo ... 0birds.wav sounds like based on https://www.freesound.org/people/jus/sounds/73617/ with another sound added to beginning etc - See the list of downloaders.
Sounds on freesound.org come with various licenses.
For example the birds sound has this license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
"You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made." and some files are "ND" (no derivatives" = no remixing)
So it is important to understand licenses and their differences (http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/17396 : not everything "creative common" is CC0 / public domain) because even slightly altered soundfiles are impossible to trace back to original author. So it only works by honesty & understanding the licenses..currently seems dubious and can make all further work questionable, too.
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gajop
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Re: Ludum Dare 34

Post by gajop » 16 Dec 2015, 10:58

We have a policy that all graphics and sound must be created during the jam so we can compete in the Graphics and Audio categories. Note that there may be files contained in our repo that weren't used which we were just too lazy to delete. UI elements (default chili theme control images) and basic brushes don't count as far as I'm concerned.

The file you mentioned wasn't used, but its reduced version was. As far as I know Forb created that sound (and all others) from scratch, but I'll have him confirm it anyways.
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8611z
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Re: Ludum Dare 34

Post by 8611z » 16 Dec 2015, 23:20

gajop wrote:The file you mentioned wasn't used, but its reduced version was.
With this file it is even clearer that it comes from freesound.org
Your 'birds.wav' is a part cut out of 'lakeside birds 2.wav' (from about 2 seconds to 6 seconds)
https://www.freesound.org/people/jus/sounds/73617/
As far as I know Forb created that sound (and all others) from scratch, but I'll have him confirm it anyways.
In the downloadhistory of the file one can see which users have downloaded the file recently and that he has now deleted his account ( https://www.freesound.org/people/Forbod ... ed_sounds/ ) confirms all there is to know.
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Silentwings
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by Silentwings » 16 Dec 2015, 23:26

I think it's prudent not to judge until Forboding Angel has been given time to respond - it seems pretty obvious that the two sounds match, that the sound is not (afaics) available elsewhere and that a response is needed, although there may be a more innocent explanation than you suggest.
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8611z
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by 8611z » 16 Dec 2015, 23:29

the response was deleting account to get rid of download history.
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smoth
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by smoth » 17 Dec 2015, 01:26

8611z wrote:the response was deleting account to get rid of download history.
? I don't follow this
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smoth
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by smoth » 17 Dec 2015, 01:55

I did use one sprite, which is essentially a brush placement in photoshop(my dust sprite) from my past. I didn't realize it was a big deal, not really art but I want to be honest about that in case anyone feels I would be hiding that
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gajop
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by gajop » 17 Dec 2015, 03:05

I have talked about this with Forb and I'm going to summarize what I understood.
Knorke is right, the file he used was indeed from freesound.
However, and this is what's key, he seems to have done this by accident. Apparently he was trying to mimic that sound using one of his generators/mixes/whatever and he made the mistake of exporting the wrong track. I suggest he also make a post when he can, but I'm going to trust his version (the freesound account deletion thing is new to me though).

I'll be taking the following steps:
1. I've taken us out of the Audio category in Ludum Dare, and have posted an explanation on our game page.
2. I've made a new release using a different file
3. I won't be sanctioning Forb for future LDs, as this seems to be a mistake rather than an attempt to cheat. I tolerate honest mistakes/fuckups as long as there's no ill intent.

The file smoth mentioned is a cloud brush, which I don't think of as art (much like the map detail texture and probably other stuff we aren't aware of), so we won't be taking any action regarding that. For the sake of clarity, I think even such files should be recreated in the future.

I hope this incident will raise our alertness so such things won't appear in the future. Lastly I would like to thank knorke for pointing this issue out. I don't think anyone in the team would want to win on fake effort.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by Forboding Angel » 17 Dec 2015, 10:55

Gajop messaged me roughly 5:38am my time. I saw the message at 7 when I woke up, I talked with him at around 830 am my time.

I have been at work all day. I have a full time job as a manager/sysadmin for a decent size company, so my days tend to be very busy. After I got off work, I took my best friend to her hair appointment which lasted for about 5 hours, shopped some, and got home at 1130pm. I just had dinner at 12:30am. Knorke, people have lives outside of this place. Maybe you don't, but normal people do.

I told Gajop what happened. Sound engineers, as a matter of course, if you are working with a multitracker and trying to minic a sound, you import the sound you are trying to minic and any added audio you merge into a single track (unless your tracker supports linking). This is so you can use the solo and track mute buttons to quickly switch between hearing the sound you want to minic and the sound you are creating. Everyone does this, it isn't black magic, voodoo, or out of the ordinary.

Audacity hoovers any id3 information it can. Importing a sound from freesound will import any id3 info that that sound had. If when you are saving it you don't clear it, the info stays in the file. I have no idea if the sound in question had this info, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. I was in a hurry.

Lets be clear, the sound I was making had birds and a 3 tone warm pad. The birds sound I was using was from a noise generator. You may also be aware that standard midi has a birds instrument (it's # 123 or 125 I get birds and helicopter mixed up) (I was using a different noise generator from midi for this though). Anyway, I don't use audacity much. I generally use sonic foundry acid 4.0, which is old as shit but it's awesome. Unfortunately it refuses to function on win10, so within the past month or so I started using audacity. As people in chat and smoth on voip knows, I had many choice words to say about audacity. The track selection is all fucking weird, the way it displays the waveforms is annoying and generally I dislike it, but without acid or cubase (and cubase is total overkill for sound effects) I'm a fish out of water.

Anyway, in a multitracker, you have mute and solo buttons. But putting the sound that you want to mimic on a separate track merged with anything else (also in acid you could link separate tracks to the solo/mute buttons but I haven't figured out how to do it with audacity yet, so I just import the sounds twice and merge them). Anyway, long story short, I saved the sound with the solo button turned on on the wrong track. I then pulled it into goldwave and saved it as 16bit mono signed. I did not listen to it after I exported it from audacity.

I made a mistake, but it was an honest mistake. I deleted my freesound account because this is the 4th time knorke has tried to use it as some sort of "smoking gun" when in fact, I routinely download stuff from freesound for other uses (not the least of which is the fact that I make a lot of ringtones).

The tools that I use are midi, my microphone, my voice, a shitload of filters/effects (flanger in goldwave is fantastic for most things) and recently I started using labchirp, which is a fucking awesome 16 bit generator (smoth was on voip with me at the time that I was generating sounds with it and working on stuff).

Anyway, I meant to make this the short version but it ended up being the long version. I asked gajop to remove Flove from the audio portion. Some people apparently take this event as some sort of way to increase social standing/dev creds. For me it is a fun way to use my skills to help a team. I generally do the best I can and I was happy this time around that I got the chance to concentrate on one area. It was far more enjoyable for me. I do not care about awards, grading, ranking, etc.

That said, I don't think I will be taking part in any more of the LD compos. Not because I "attempt to cheat" or whatever knorke is insinuating, but simply because it's supposed to be fun. Knorke could have easily flagged it in github as an issue and it would have been dealt with appropriately. He could have pm'd gajop or myself, but instead he attempted to create a spectacle here in order to either humiliate or embarrass me. Either way, I told gajop this and I'll tell the rest of you the same thing. I don't do any of this because I want some sort of social standing, or some award or I don't even know. I do stuff like this because I enjoy contributing when I can. Most people here can tell you that if someone asks me for help with something I pretty much never say no and generally ask for nothing in return. I thought that was part of being a normal decent human being. Apparently it is the exception (which boggles my mind), rather than the rule. I contacted Gajop at the earliest opportunity and was very up front about everything. I will participate in LD preps if Gajop asks me to, but I have no wish to participate in the actual event. As I told Gajop, I will not be the anchor that drags everyone else down just because knorke and people like him will try to exploit every single thing you do in such a way as to make everyone else look bad (IE, make any mistake, get dragged through the mud and so does everyone else). I made an easy mistake, that's not hard to admit. What is laughable is the idea that I couldn't find a suitable way to get birds in a track. Never mind that as I said, birds are a midi instrument.

http://www.caseyrule.com/projects/piano/
https://www.bome.com/products/mousekeyboard (This is the midi keyboard I have used since the 90's/early 00's)

You don't have to like me, that's perfectly fine. On these forums my personality is notoriously prickly, but much of it stems from years of dealing with assholes like knorke who will use manipulation and duplicitous actions as method to stab you in the back when you least expect it. He spent years trying to goad myself and smoth into retaliating so much and so often that we would get permabanned from this forum. Then when he finally succeeded in getting me banned for like 2 weeks, he started a thread about how smoth and I should be permabanned, and accidentally outed himself and what he had been trying to do for years. So, feel free to decide for yourselves what his motives are for anything he does.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by Forboding Angel » 17 Dec 2015, 11:02

There is a part 2 here, specifically for knorke, but I haven't decided whether to post it yet. Gajop, I got home late as shit today. I will get you whatever you need as soon as I can tonight (it's 2am). Frankly, I can't reasonably function like this and this whole situation pretty much ruined my entire day. As I said to you in chat, I'm sorry for the trouble. Anyone who thinks that I intentionally "tried to cheat" would be a fucking idiot. I happen to be pretty talented when it comes to audio...
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smoth
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Re: Ludum Dare 34 - licensing sounds (split)

Post by smoth » 17 Dec 2015, 16:04

These things happen, he is right and we need to be more careful. His way of expressing that was neutral pending on what he meant by the following:
8611z wrote:the response was deleting account to get rid of download history.

Is he saying that you deleted your account and download history in an attempt to cover something(if that is the case knorke, this is an ugly accusation). Is he saying he made a post on the page and his account was deleted? if so what history was also deleted? It is some kind of strange nonsensical post
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