Random WIP 2006-2011 - Page 320

Random WIP 2006-2011

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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Re: Random WIP

Post by PicassoCT » 25 Aug 2010, 20:49

If it werent cremus, i would be on my guard now, screaming fake and shoop, or entirly diffrent game. :)


Journeyman RailGun, long range, penetrating, even longer reloadtime and slow turreturn..
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Gouken
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Gouken » 25 Aug 2010, 21:01

I made a new model, its called a Weeaboo

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721 Faces
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Cremuss
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Cremuss » 25 Aug 2010, 22:11

Thx

Pxtl > yeah I know but I'm thinking of a system like a trick you usually do in xhtml/css where you have a top and a bottom image and a mid image of 1px height which you can duplicate if you want to pull up the top part.

So same thing here, if the window width increase, pull the minimap to the left and add X 1px width center image to increase the center pannel width. I don't know if I'm clear but it should work :)

KaiserJ > models will be soon released under CC or gpl-like license so BAR may use them but yeah I've another project in my mind :)
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Hoi
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Hoi » 25 Aug 2010, 22:13

Cremuss wrote:Pressure Line > very nice model :-)

I spent the two last days doing a GUI test. Ofc it's not ingame, it's only overlayed on a GUI-less spring screenshot atm but I think it looks good. I'm not very happy with the unitpics though, need to redo them. Any critics ? thx

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Don't take care about the unit build list and avaible actions list not corresponding to the "selected" land fac, it's just a test..
Also, the 4 empty buildpics at the top is for a special feature..
It's using too much space. Especially the hotkey buttons 1 2 3 4. You want the ui as small as possible, but easily useable.

The double borders of the icons in the bottom right icon dock are annoying for the eye. I suggest a single border.

There is so much black, and dark. With the blue it contrasts to 'warm' maps a lot. This makes it annoying to look for me, maybe a bit less darks?

You want to prevent big black areas. You can easily get away with changing the text near the icon to position it next to the icon, instead of above/underneath it.

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uiedit.jpg
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That's my edit. It's not very well polished so a few edges can look strange / gradients can look out of sync. Also the 1 2 3 buttons need to be separated.

I hope you look at my edits and use some of my suggestions :) Note that I did not change the color and design, but try to experiment with the colors to decrease the contrast with the map a bit. It looks like it's shouting at me like this.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Random WIP

Post by KaiserJ » 25 Aug 2010, 22:28

i like most of those changes hoi, a lot more space effective

also i can agree about what you said re: hot/cold colors of different maps changing the impact of the interface

my one concern with your remake is that group of 4 buttons were for "special abilities" i think rather than hotkeys, and im not sure where the 1,2,3 buttons came from... otherwise it looks very nice, good layout improvement

edit : maybe even for a "nextgen" interface.. replace buildpic menu with the gesture menu? that way even more space could be saved
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Hoi
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Hoi » 25 Aug 2010, 22:48

Or do it like starcraft and have a button for "buildings" and one for "advanced building". You can even split it up in economy, production and misc buildings. This way you don't need 1000 buildpics but one dock is enough.

12-15 ability spaces should be enough. Most units can't repair, so they don't need a repair button (ect). The only things all units need are move, attack, patrol and stop. You can put those 4 in a seperate box and then have space for special abilities such as repair, reclaim, capture et cetera. This space of 4 buttons all units have can be different for fighting units, production buildings, workers, and so on.

Some good examples:

http://www.digitalbattle.com/wp-content ... /sc2ui.jpg
http://www.mrvao.com/images/sc2uiLg.jpg

And I think it's really a lot better to work with icons for energy and metal. It's a lot easier to see and uses less space. And I recommend putting energy on the left side, and metal on the right. This sounds a bit stupid but progress bars usually go from the left to the right. Usually you will have more than enough energy and not enough metal, so for the brain it will feel better to have what you need on the right side.

And, try colors. Red for attack, green for move, orange for stop, blue for patrol. It will make it easier to find what you want.

The 1 2 3 buttons got minimal attention but they are for switching the tabs on the constructible buildings. But in my opinion the starcraft system I explained above is a lot better, if you do that you won't need them.

What a good ui needs:

- Compact
- Easy to see what's going on
- Effective
- No distraction from the environment. It should be easy on the eye if you just look around on the map

Good luck :)
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Hobo Joe » 25 Aug 2010, 23:13

Hoi, your edits are good but I think it's worth pointing out that floating panels often have the reverse effect, although they're smaller than the original version, the floating makes it seem as if the UI is COVERING the screen, rather than being an entirely separate aspect of the screen, and most people will naturally perceive the screen(the map view I mean) as being smaller. This is something that's always bugged me about the various Spring UI's, they are all floating/transparent and it's a constant annoyance because I feel like parts of the screen are being covered up and kept out of sight when I should be able to see them, whereas if it was all opaque and consistent that effect would most likely disappear.

Just a thought.

I am only talking about the sides being pulled in though, I'm 100% in favor of squishing it so it's shorter and takes up less space. Don't want oversized UI's, but then again that the same time you don't want cluttered ones.


And Cremuss, it rocks. :D
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Cremuss
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Cremuss » 26 Aug 2010, 02:15

yeah, thanks a lot for the critics.

I agree with most of what has been said here and I definitly take care of everything for the new version :)

Hoi > thanks for the effort :-)

I agree with Hobo Joe about the empty space at the very left and right that is showing a small band of the map. I prefer to make the bottom part covering the full window width.

I'm not sure about the "special feature" buttons emplacement too, but I'm ok about almost everything else, it'll definitly help me.

Also, sorting buildpics by eco/offensive or whatever category sounds interesting, but I fear that it'll add precious seconds in order to find the right buildpic for the desired unit. Maybe I'm wrong, it's not critical anyway.. I don't really know how most next-gen RTS interface are working since the only RTS I've played for the past five years is supcom1 .. :D

KaiserJ >
edit : maybe even for a "nextgen" interface.. replace buildpic menu with the gesture menu? that way even more space could be saved
The gesture menu :?: can you precise ? :D

...
v2 in progress :-)
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JohannesH
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Re: Random WIP

Post by JohannesH » 26 Aug 2010, 02:28

Sorting through categories is ok if every building is binded to a key, like in Starcraft. Its too slow to click through the menus by mouse. If you have very many buildings I don't know how practical it is to have a key to each, faster to have only key structures behind 1 key, and rest by 1 click, than everything through 2 keypresses. It'd take a lot of time to remember all binds for all units.

Gesture menu is what CA uses for building units, its activated by doing some mouse gesture no matter where your cursor is and a menu pops up next to your cursor.
Personally I don't like it but I haven't really tried it much.
Also it fits CA better than other games since every constructor has same build list - everyone knows what a con can build, without seeing the images.
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SeanHeron
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Re: Random WIP

Post by SeanHeron » 26 Aug 2010, 03:08

I'd have to disagree with Hoi on almost every point...
Hoi wrote: It's using too much space. [...]. You want the ui as small as possible, but easily useable.
That's the only one I can semi concur to - I personally don't think it's using too much space though. The whole bottom being a "row" slimmer would be nice, but I'd say thats optional. See what you need gamewise, then go for current or thinner as appropriate.
Hoi wrote:There is so much black, and dark. With the blue it contrasts to 'warm' maps a lot. This makes it annoying to look for me, maybe a bit less darks?
Why is black and dark bad ? It looks a-ok to me. Plus, first of all, who says all maps are going to look like the one in the screenshot; second, I think the contrast works very well, and doesn't distract me from the action at all (I'm looking at it full-screen, set as desktop-background - think it can stay there a bit as well :P).
Hoi wrote:You want to prevent big black areas. You can easily get away with changing the text near the icon to position it next to the icon, instead of above/underneath it.
It's not as if it's massive - and if I understood the proposed screen-width solution, you'll have some black/empty space in any case. I think it's probably a good idea to have some "blank" space, to give eyes a bit of a rest - else the UI looks overly busy (every little bit squeezed full).
Hoi wrote:12-15 ability spaces should be enough. Most units can't repair, so they don't need a repair button (ect). The only things all units need are move, attack, patrol and stop. You can put those 4 in a seperate box and then have space for special abilities such as repair, reclaim, capture et cetera. This space of 4 buttons all units have can be different for fighting units, production buildings, workers, and so on.
Constantly switching buttons for different units is not necessarily a good thing... I think the layout with one area for build options, and one for unit orders is fine (but maybe I misunderstood).
Hoi wrote:And I think it's really a lot better to work with icons for energy and metal. It's a lot easier to see and uses less space. And I recommend putting energy on the left side, and metal on the right. This sounds a bit stupid but progress bars usually go from the left to the right. Usually you will have more than enough energy and not enough metal, so for the brain it will feel better to have what you need on the right side.
I'm partial on text vs icons. But metal on right? Metal is the most important one - and you look left to the right --> more important one should be on the left. (I was wondering whether the bar should reach out from the middle in both directions though...)
Hoi wrote:And, try colors. Red for attack, green for move, orange for stop, blue for patrol. It will make it easier to find what you want.
No, don't. Or if then only in ever so lightly touched up tones of your current colours (but orange for stop, thats crap...). What I might suggest is adding the hotkey characters in a corner (which will usually also give indications to what the order is, at least if using standard TA/Spring hotkeys).

Sorry to be so negative, but in my view, your (Hoi) edit is a step backwards in almost all ways (except perhaps, as stated, on somewhat slimming the bottom bar).

Edit: I think the Unitpics are great, btw. I'd only say that two of the turrets (bottom 2+3rd from right) and the two energy buildings with a lot of yellow (top rightmost) are not so well distinguishable. Maybe point one turret towards the right, instead of left (I'd go for the one with the longer barrels). All others are very easy to make out, I think, and look awesome in my eyes :D.
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Saktoth
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Saktoth » 26 Aug 2010, 04:19

Totally amazing Crem, you're really making the engine look as if it could run with commercial quality content.

Are you going to need help on the lua to make that into an actual interface though? You're clearly capable of making most of this game yourself, and content is the hardest part, but how is your lua?

I'd also love to hear where you are going with this, gameplay wise, too. Clearly a project to watch.

On the interface design: the icons are totally gorgeous, though id have to sit down and play with them to know if they were too dark, etc. Nobody can really say, until they have played with the interface, whether the things they think will bug them really do. But yes, as a rule, its probably best to minimize how much space the interface takes up. If you do stick the build menu behind a series of buttons, it may be best to use more of a tab based approach, so you can change to another menu, but you dont have to click a button every time you want to build: there is always a set of units displayed. Alternatively you can use a page scroll (like current menu) or a scrollbar (allowing gradual scrolling).

Image
Image
That is the radial build menu. You can access it via simply drawing a gesture (Moving the the mouse up, then left, makes a solar) or by pressing buttons (pressing w d makes a fusion). It takes a little getting used to, but it allows things to be categorized into logical categories, display only a segment of a large build menu at a time, but allow very fast access to sub menus once you have learnt where everything is. And unlike a traditional spring build menu, everything is always in the same place: you dont get buildings moving from one page to another if you have a few extra commands present. You can also put commands on the menu if you like as well, such as say terraform, repair, reclaim etc commands. But be aware that gestures conflict with the custom formations (or line, IE, right-click and drag) move command- this means that you have to press 'M' to move constructors in a custom formation, and if you used it for commands on non-constructors, would disable custom formations context movement for them too. This can be fixed by putting it behind a button press (say, pressing b or a button on the command menu opens the gesture menu), so context drag is still move. It doesnt conflict with the other context commands though, like click-and-drag reclaim.

It only allows for 56-64 total buildings, but this changes depending on whether you have cons with different build menus (say, land, sea, t2, t1), and you can add more directions or sub-menus for less frequently used units.
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Wolf-In-Exile
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Wolf-In-Exile » 26 Aug 2010, 09:16

Very nice interface, cremuss. :-) Do I see a little inspiration from starcraft? :P
Pressure Line wrote:Battletech.

Image

(WolfInExile's, not mine)
Hum, I don't remember leaving the grid on it. :P
I think bob has the final tex if you don't have it.
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Pressure Line
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Pressure Line » 26 Aug 2010, 09:27

Won't need it till I start doing Clantech, which will be a long while.
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manolo_
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Re: Random WIP

Post by manolo_ » 26 Aug 2010, 14:08

tbh i liek the grid :)
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Cremuss
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Cremuss » 26 Aug 2010, 17:56

thanks for all the critics :-) !

Wolf-In-Exile > yeah a bit but not that much honnestly :) Anyway I think SCII UI is good, so it's not that bad to take inspiration from it :p

Saktoth > I'll definitly need 2-3 lua coders to finish unit animation scripts, make special widgets/gadgets (not that much), new FX etc .. but first I need time to make SVN server, wiki, write gameplay, todolist, roadmap and stuff like that before recruiting in order to have a organized development.

About buildmenu, I tried CA's radial menu and I must admit that it works really well.. I still need a build list in the UI in order to build units with factories though. So I guess I'll go with a simple "build" button that opens or shows how to open the radial menu button for commanders/cons and stay with the actual build list for factories.

So.. update.

Image
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Image

Tried to downscale the window size. It works good but atm it can't go down under 1024width even if it can be improved. I also maintain that rescaling the UI to fit the window is not the better way. I prefer to keep the original scale but reduce space between them.
http://cremuss.free.fr/3d/2008/EvolvereGUIrc2_4.jpg

I tried to take care about what has been said so tell me if it's better or not.
[*] I kept the position of the 4 buttons special feature because I didn't find a correct position elsewhere for it but I reduced icon size about 50% (it's also supposed to be a often used feature so I guess top center is good)
[*] Simplified the resources bar (it still need a energy/metal icon)
[*] Removed the double border on frames
[*] Less saturation
[*] Less contrast and a bit more bright
[*] Added 3 buttons in the action pannel (right bottom) for toggling unit movement/fire at will and repeat. Cloak and other actionable actions/comportment will go with the other actions
[*] Dragged down the center bottom panel. I'll try to drag down it even more cause buildpics don't need to be that big.

Everyones seems to like buildpics but I honnestly don't like them. The main thing that bother me is that some of them have very ugly perspective, like eye fish .. so I'll just try to fix that later :)

I'm still not happy with the buildlist, I made the buildpics way too big so I'll fix that in next update

I guess it's better overall, what do you think ?
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Satirik
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Satirik » 26 Aug 2010, 18:01

stop posting and work more !! WE WANT TO PLAY IT ALREADY !
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Hobo Joe » 26 Aug 2010, 18:20

Very nice - the buildpics are great, if you think they're too "fish-eye" you can simply adjust the camera perspective, or even render it orthographic if needed.

As for the 4 buttons on top, I wouldn't want them there, it's inconsistent with the rest of the UI and oddly misplaced, I'd either integrate them with the other action buttons as a 4th and top row, but keep them separate with the colors they have now, or above where the buildpics are, butted up against the minimap.

Bad photochop example:
Image

Definitely an improvement over the previous version though.
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Hoi
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Hoi » 26 Aug 2010, 18:59

It's getting there. It's a lot easier on the eye and it's not huge anymore. I have to agree with joe, placing those buttons down there is a lot better. If you have them on the top they stick out and that's just not right.

The reason you don't like the buildpics can be because they don't have teamcolor. Try them with some blue instead of black. However I must say that the teamcolor you use is very flat and scraping a bit off with a brush will make everything look better imo :)

Like this : http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315 ... 1280190508
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Saktoth
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Re: Random WIP

Post by Saktoth » 26 Aug 2010, 19:16

Look forward to hearing where you are going with this crem, gameplay wise.

CA is by default using the pop-out buildbar on the right side for factory construction. All your factories are displayed there, and hovering over one shows the units it can build. Thats not necessarily superior to a static buildbar at the bottom of the screen, of course.

And naturally, gesture menu can be used on factories just as easily as on constructors. If you have less than 9 units per factory, you dont even need sub-menus.
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JohannesH
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Re: Random WIP

Post by JohannesH » 26 Aug 2010, 20:28

Cremuss wrote:About buildmenu, I tried CA's radial menu and I must admit that it works really well.. I still need a build list in the UI in order to build units with factories though. So I guess I'll go with a simple "build" button that opens or shows how to open the radial menu button for commanders/cons and stay with the actual build list for factories.
Maybe just keep the organisation structure of the gesture menu, and the location-matching keybinds.

So you first press a key to pops up the categories (econ, turrets, etc) to the UI bar on the bottom, which you can select by Q/W/E/A/S/D/Z/X/C (or by mouseclick), then select a category, which brings up the buildings to choose from, all bound to the QWEASDZXC keys too. So 3 presses to reach any building.

But depending on how many categories there is, if there's few enough per con, it be possible to skip the initial keypress/mouseclick to bring up buildmenu and have the categories bound to keys, and displayed on the HUD all the time.

For example lets take Con vehicle in BA. 4 categories would be enough, Z could bring up econ buildings, X turrets, C labs and nano, V all the rest. So that would make 2 clicks per building.
You'd have to prepare for when theres 2 cons with different build lists selected though, lets say t1 and t2 convehs. If you press X will it bring up t1 or t2 turrets? But could be taken care of by having a key to switch between those pages, like you do with , and . now (could be those keys still. But just retain that 1 page ALWAYS has the same structures (example t1 turrets, is always its own page), to keep the keybinds consistent.

I hope that was somehow clear, I'll draw a sketch if that text wasn't understandable :D

But in any case, keep in mind that pressing keys is by far the faster than moving mouse. So at least the most common buildings you make should be designed to be reached with keypresses.


Oh and the factorys have massive blips on the minimap, should be changed probably.
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