Few questions about unit making and UpSpring

[ApathyZer0]

Okay, to begin with if the information i seek is buried in a tutorial that I haven't found I apologize.(Because I seek out hidden tutorials like a pirate searches for buried treasure) I have constructed my simple practice unit in wings. I have also created a texture for this unit in photoshop. I then added an alpha channel and a mask layer and whited out the team color areas on the mask layer. Do these need to be done in seperate files or are they conjoined? As upspring asks for 2 different skin files(1 being unit texture the 2nd being teamcolor, I assume it's the former.) how do I best accomplish this? And, will this be the same process for creating the reflective/glowmap textures? The other thing setting me back is the origins. I import my obj. files starting with(I'll use the names I'm working with.) simpletank(base) as the parent of the heirarchy, followed by the children simpletank(chassis), simpletank(turret), simpletank(gunbarrel). I scaled up 10 on the chassis thereby scaling all child obj.s and am now ready for dealing with the origins. They appear in the upper right of the chassis so i move the turret so the origin is centered, I then apply transform, and move it back. I follow this step with the barrel but, instead of having my origins properly placed i now have a double set of origins for the obj.s. I have not been able to find a tutorial that goes into the detail to describe dealing with origins. They all seem to brush past it which i assume means that normally there isn't this kind of difficulty in dealing with them. If this all sounds noobish, well if the shoe fits . So, if anyone would be kind enough to point me in the right direction I would be most gratefull.(whether it be through an explanation here or tell me where to find the tutorial I seek, either works for me) I am still very new to modding and I'll learn whatever I need to learn. For the past 2 weeks I've spent about 4 hours a day reading tutorials, I don't mind having to research things I'd just like to be able to find what I'm looking for. Many Thanks.(ps. I would really like to be able to contribute to spring effort and although i dont have mod experience, I have created artwork most of my life, I just need to find a way to carry it over)
(Okay I'm seriously done now..)

[Vassago]

First off, might want to break things out into paragraphs next time Easier to read/explain.

I don't script/animate the units, I only texture. So I can help ya with that at least.

Each unit can have 2 textures. The first one is RGB color, used as the diffuse texture. The alpha channel of the diffuse texture is used for team color (whiter means the team color is brighter/more opaque).

The second texture is more confusing. The red channel dictates shading within the engine. So if the red channel is pure white, the model will be full-bright in the game. No shading will affect it at all.
The green channel is used for the reflective cubemap. The whiter the texture, the more it's going to reflect, and vice versa.
The blue channel of the second texture is currently NOT used, though.

[FLOZi]

The word you are looking for for the red channel is self illumination.



And uuhh, never had to deal with origins in Upspring myself as thankfully assembling models isn't my job anymore, either.

[Gnomre]

How can you have a double set of origins?

Here's how you reset the origins in upspring:

1) Scale/rotate the model to its final size and position first. This is because the button that does this stuff resets origins, so you'll have to start the process all over if you don't do it right from the beginning.

2) Click the piece whose origin you want to reset. Move it to where the origin should be, relative to the parent object's origin. If the object is the root, then the parent origin is the world origin.

3) Hit apply transform.

4) Move the piece back to its normal resting position.

5) Repeat for all pieces.

Now, here's an example. Let's say I'm resetting the right arm's origins on the Stormtrooper, a human. He has the following hierarchy of pieces:

-Pelvis
--Torso
---Ruparm (right upper arm)
----Rloarm (right forearm)
-----Gun

Let's say I want the pelvis origin to be where the pelvis and torso meet. I move the pelvis so the top of it is at the world origin, and hit apply transform. I then move it back to its normal height, but do NOT click apply transform again.

Next, I do the torso. I want its origin to be where it meets the pelvis as well. However, instead of moving it to the world origin, I move it so the bottom of the torso is meeting pelvis' origin where I want the torso's origin. I hit apply transform, and move the piece into position if necessary.

Now move ruparm relative to torso's origin. I want the origin of ruparm to be at the shoulder joint, so I put the piece in a position that somewhat overlaps the torso's origin on each axis. Apply transform, and move it to its designated position.

Rloarm is more of the same. The origin should be in the elbow, and it is applied relative to ruparm's origin and then moved into position.

And finally gun's origin is made in the grip, where he would be holding the rifle.

Hope that helps.

[ApathyZer0]

Sorry about the large block of mess, next time i'll break it down better. To better explain my issues I'll describe my process, as is.
After I export my UV map from wings, I import them into photoshop, create a layer and paint my difuse texture on the mapped peices. Then click on the channel tab, and create my alpha channel. The map is now entirely black unless any of the rgb channels are veiwed. This is normal from what I've read so far.

Next, I switch back over to the layers tab and create a layer mask so I can then make team color areas. I white out the areas 99% on the mask layer and then save my progress in dds. file format.

Now in upspring with the model loaded in its obj. form, I go to the mapping tab. Under the texture mapping selector are the S30 mapping settings labelled texture 1 and below it texture 2 (feeling stupid about the number of textures question in my last post already :). In the texture 1 slot i load in my tex.

So, what I have now is my tex on the model with some white boxes painted on it. I'm clearly doing some very basic, simple things wrong. I know my way around photoshop well enough to make what I need(most of the time). But, in this instance I'm not fully sure how to apply it to the situation.

I hope this shows my glaring mistakes and gives you a more defined description.(On the texture part at least, I need to figure this part out before I can really advance further anyway) I appreciate the swiftness with which you have responded to my request.

And, this is what I'm understanding from your reply
So the diffuse texture is painted onto the UV map, and then the team color is painted onto the alpha channel. The 2 different channels comprise the primary texture for the selected objects. I removed the mask layer to paint directly on the map in the alpha channel. No dice.

On the second texture map, how do you make the green and red channels. I've never had to work with either of these before and there is still many things I have to learn about photoshop.


Gnome, so do I need to import an obj. labeled base? Some of the tut's say this is needed, while others don't mention it. And thank you for the info on world origin that makes alot more sense now. Is the base obj. the world origin or can it be whatever peice is introduced as the parent? (being a central peice logically)

[Argh]

First, I'd suggest downloading NanoBlobs. It's one of the two released S3O mods out there, and just looking at the files will probably help you a great deal.

Second, go read through the threads I've written about these topics. I have posted up a lot of information over the last few months about getting S3O to work correctly, and you'll have to forgive me for not wanting to type it all over again

Third, I would make a "how to make a unit" tutorial, but I am not very familiar with Wiki stuff, and Maestro's tutorial is actually pretty complete, other than some minor details.

[Zenka]

Almost everything you need to know about getting your unit textured in Spring (and Upspring) is covered in Maestro's upspring tutorial (it comes with upspring it's self. just look in the folder).
If you like treasure hunting. take a look on the wiki: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Mod_an ... evlopement All tutorials are gathered there.

When having an alpha map, make sure you use DTX3 or DXT5. Also try using .tga. This is a bigger file. but you can at least check if the alpha channel works.

@Argh. I could do the wiki stuff. If you write the tut

[ApathyZer0]

Fear not. I plan on making this one much shorter. Argh I'd not have you make a tutorial you've already made when you've done such a great job on the ones I've read. The 2 main ones that come to mind are the UV mapping tutorial you did for freelancer. This one got me unstuck on my map by application of principal rather than direct guide. And secondly, the spider mark 2 thread. I will surely be using the cloning techniques when I'm ready for more advanced unit building.
Zenka, thank you but i have infact already raided that portion of wiki (and most of the rest as well) for it's goodies, and have several selections bookmarked. I have already read Maestro's guide twice but, I'll read it again. Chances are I can glean more information. My only qualm with the document is that it doesn't address reflective/glow mapping, and skips origin placement.However this information is in one of my bookmarked Wiki's, I just need to make sense of it.
Origin's no longer plague me due to Gnome's exellent description.
The problem was actually not that the origins were duplicate, rather it was just misplacement and confusion on my part.
And about looking into Nano Blob files. FANTASTIC IDEA! If I can use these to reverse engineer a unit or even to just get a better idea of where put certain files, and exactly what to put in them. I'm sure this will help immensely. Once again thank you to everyone who has been patient with me while I try to figure all this out. Hopefully I won't need to bother you guys with too many more stupid questions.

[Zenka]

Heh good luck ^.^

Don't be afraid to ask anything. We're glad people attemp to make content for Spring. And are more then happy to answer any quesion. (no matter how silly).
Though we would appreciate the use of the return key in your posts

[Argh]

And about looking into Nano Blob files. FANTASTIC IDEA! If I can use these to reverse engineer a unit or even to just get a better idea of where put certain files, and exactly what to put in them. I'm sure this will help immensely.

NanoBlobs has always been designed to be ultra-clean, so that people can borrow from it. I should probably get the new version with custom explosions out soon, too, since there seems to be a need for that.

[ApathyZer0]

I'm so close it hurts... Well now i have the diffuse texture and team color map working but, I cannot for the life of me figure out how the 2nd texture for reflective and glow work.

I've been analyzing the files from nano blobs(thanks again Argh, it is helping) but something from the 2nd tex is confusing me. When i loaded it up into PS I noticed that your alpha channel is white and has nothing marked on it. I've been trying to replicate your method and nothing so far. Tried marking only on the green channel and red channel respectively, nothing. In your map the green and red parts show up as green and red. I'm getting greyscale only.

I've looked all through the wiki and several threads, unfortunately the details I'm after have eluded me once more. At the moment I'm reading some more tutorials on PS and alpha channels to see if I can find what I'm looking for there.

Anyway thats the update. (so much shorter and now comes in chunks!)

[ApathyZer0]

After many struggles and experiments, I have come up with something that looks like your(Argh) second texture map. I'm not sure if it's because I've finally done it right or just made something that looks right. Alas my wimpy NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 4000 does not support unit reflections, so learning to add the second texture map will be for the benifit of everyone else.(sigh, someday I'll get that new cpu like I keep promising myself)

So, basically that's whats going on now. Almost through the easy stuff and then I get to start really fighting with things.goody.. But, failure is not an option and I'll keep chipping away at it no matter how long it takes. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

[ApathyZer0]

And, now to see if scripter will work for s3o's as well as 3do's. Fingers are crossed. I've been making some progress, slow but things have been rather hectic of late. I'll post a better update in the near future. Not that it matters I'm just talking to myself anymore No matter. Until we meet again me...

[Wolf-In-Exile]

I've another related question, if you don't mind.

I've not textured for Spring before, but I am familiar with DDS and i've sifted through some threads and the Wiki.

However the mod Wiki is sadly incomplete and doesn't answer some fundamental issues (imo) regarding texturing.

* Does s3o support bump mapping, or better still normal mapping?
* Does it have issues with "shared" UV coordinate parts (using the same texture space for symmetrical bodyparts like arms and legs)?
* Does each unit have a separate texture map, or is it all lumped into one map (like another game I mod for does)?


Texture formats:
From what i've gleaned from several threads, there are a few supported texture formats. What are their advantages and disadvantages?
* BMP
* TGA
* DDS

One question about texturing in particular:
* Does DDS also support reflection maps like .tga does?

Any caveats or quirks?
* e.g. if you use DDS textures, don't use any other texture format for other units or the alpha/transparency will turn black.

- i've read conflicting reports on the support of transparency, self-illumination and reflectiveness, so an explanation of these would be very much appreciated.


A more user-friendly approach would be greatly appreciated instead of the current method (linking to various threads), specifically compiling all the pertinent information (such as procedures, formats, advantages/disadvantages and other minutae) in the Wiki to make everyone's life easier and reduce threads asking the same basic questions.

Thanks in advance.

[KDR_11k]

It's just as it's described in the Wiki: Each s3o has one diffuse map with the alpha channel being teamcolor alpha and a second texture with reflectivity and self illumination in the red and green channels.

Obviously that means no bump or normalmaps. Since that's the only thing that could cause problems with overlapping UVs Spring won't mind those either.

BMP: I don't think alpha for those is supported by Spring.
TGA: Essentially the same thing as BMP except Spring accepts the alpha channel.
DDS: Allows compression. No idea which compressions are supported by Spring.

As I don't think you can have a unit trexture without alpha channel BMP is out for those.

Transparency isn't supported at all, reflectivity is defined by the second texture regardless of format.

All this information I gathered from one Wiki page IIRC.

[maestro]

BMP is used to make .3do file which dont need alfa
TGA and DDS are for .s3o
so yea pick your choice

[maestro]

I have already read Maestro's guide twice but, I'll read it again. Chances are I can glean more information. My only qualm with the document is that it doesn't address reflective/glow mapping,

At the time I wrote the tut reflective/glow not yet introduced
Ill update my tut once jcnossen update upspring

[ApathyZer0]

Well I suppose that's a good enough excuse Thanks for making it, it's probably the best document around right now for dealing with upspring.

[edit] Oh, and by the way I have this part of unit development under control so it can be deleted or die or whatever unless someone else has need for it.

[Wolf-In-Exile]

Great, thanks alot for the answer. :)