Ok guys, here's the deal - Page 2

Ok guys, here's the deal

Share and discuss visual creations and creation practices like texturing, modelling and musing on the meaning of life.

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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
Posts: 6109
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 01:14

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by FLOZi » 09 Mar 2011, 08:57

smoth wrote:From what I understand it is just that the hodge podge franken models that we are seeing a lot of look like crap and I cannot blame him for wanting to put a stop to that. Obviously the guys who are using his models need to get permission to be able to alter said work for the project(should tweaks need to be made).

I don't think wolf is saying you can NEVER EVAR edit his work but considering the monstrosities of the kitbashes I see around here I can understand his sentiment.
What kitbashes?
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by Forboding Angel » 09 Mar 2011, 09:43

^^ Yeah... I hadn't seen any, which is one thing that makes this topic so weird.

My main annoyance was that it wasn't licensed as such initially, and only when asked does the hammer come down. That's a crappy way to do business.

I have 0% vested interest, but I think that wolf's dealing and sequence deserves criticism.

But wait, yet another twist... The EOW models are derivatives of commercial IP? ... wtf? You don't even have the right to license them in that case, because as a derivative work, the licensing belongs to the IP holder (iirc, based upon one of those giant threads).

But seriously, why derivative works? Your regular shit is cash... I don't understand why you would do something derivative. :?:

Anyway, there's not much point to taking it personally. It doesn't seem as though anyone is coming at you personally. However, for my part, your methodology is quite irksome.
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SinbadEV
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Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by SinbadEV » 09 Mar 2011, 15:30

Forboding Angel wrote:But wait, yet another twist... The EOW models are derivatives of commercial IP? ... wtf? You don't even have the right to license them in that case, because as a derivative work, the licensing belongs to the IP holder (iirc, based upon one of those giant threads).
I'm pretty sure there are other things in play here but I understand that part at least.

This is exactly like smoth and his Gundam models... it's not that he doesn't want to share... he just knows that because they are based on existing intellectual property he should be careful about what licensing he attaches to them. It's like how you can make your own T-shirt with a picture of Mario on it, that's fine, but if you try to sell it to people then Nintendo sues your pants off... So, he needs to ensure that the license he releases his models under will not allow other people to sell a product that incorporates them.



Meanwhile, I'd really like to know if WiE has granted smoth permission to distribute his alternate textures for the EoW BattleTech units.
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lurker
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Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by lurker » 09 Mar 2011, 16:01

Forb, it was rights reserved initially because that is the default. Maybe it didn't occur to Wolf that people would start grabbing the textures to do other things with.

And when it comes to derivation you seem to be mistaken about how copyright works. We can discuss it if you want but it'll take me a while to word things; let me know.
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SeanHeron
Engines Of War Developer
Posts: 583
Joined: 09 Jun 2005, 23:39

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by SeanHeron » 09 Mar 2011, 16:38

SinbadEV wrote: Meanwhile, I'd really like to know if WiE has granted smoth permission to distribute his alternate textures for the EoW BattleTech units.
Wolf-In-Exile wrote:I've discussed EoW with seanheron [...] If you have questions you should ask sean.
It's a mixed bag - in short, for some yes, for some no - but in those cases rightly no. There's a few complicating matters, including IP issues. If you really want the full details, PM me.
They're not BT units though, btw (though some are inspired by some BT-related art...). Mechs maybe, ok.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by Forboding Angel » 09 Mar 2011, 19:13

lurker wrote:Forb, it was rights reserved initially because that is the default. Maybe it didn't occur to Wolf that people would start grabbing the textures to do other things with.

And when it comes to derivation you seem to be mistaken about how copyright works. We can discuss it if you want but it'll take me a while to word things; let me know.
Yeah ok, that makes sense. See, the thing is, so much of what was going on wasn't visible to people without inside knowledge, as a result, this entire thread seems quite strange, but now I understand that there were a lot more things going on in the background and all of a sudden the entire thing makes sense.

@Wolf, it's worth repeating that I wasn't attacking you. I was, however, rather curious why you went about things the way you did. Now I understand why.
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Wolf-In-Exile
Posts: 495
Joined: 21 Nov 2005, 13:40

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by Wolf-In-Exile » 09 Mar 2011, 20:47

FLOZi wrote: What kitbashes?
The ballista in seanheron's Engines of War, the many incarnations of the spherebot come to mind. To my knowledge there isn't any others, but I had to say something while its still a 'relatively' small issue.

The spherebot isn't an issue per se as its CC, though I admit that I don't like seeing it being recycled all over the place.
Forboding Angel wrote:^^ Yeah... I hadn't seen any, which is one thing that makes this topic so weird.

My main annoyance was that it wasn't licensed as such initially, and only when asked does the hammer come down. That's a crappy way to do business.

I have 0% vested interest, but I think that wolf's dealing and sequence deserves criticism.

But wait, yet another twist... The EOW models are derivatives of commercial IP? ... wtf? You don't even have the right to license them in that case, because as a derivative work, the licensing belongs to the IP holder (iirc, based upon one of those giant threads).

But seriously, why derivative works? Your regular shit is cash... I don't understand why you would do something derivative. :?:

Anyway, there's not much point to taking it personally. It doesn't seem as though anyone is coming at you personally. However, for my part, your methodology is quite irksome.
The thing is, there was no need to talk about the license initially, because they were made at a time when most of the work done for Spring was rights reserved by default. In fact, in most other mod communities even today, it is understood that a work is under regular copyright unless declared otherwise by the author.

Yes I probably should have made a thread like this as Spring became CC and even more open source oriented, but in my defense I didn't foresee people assuming that all my work is CC.

As to why derivative work, well I didn't know how to make my own concept art, and Battletech was something I was really into back then.

@SinbadEV: the ballista has characteristics of the Battletech dire wolf, so that one has to be changed, but the other stuff that's non-kitbashes are ok with me. I've discussed a compromise with sean about that.

@lurker: that's correct, and I realise I should think things through more often.

@forb: upon reflection and putting myself in your shoes, I can understand where you're coming from and I apologise for causing any misunderstandings due to not giving a clearer picture of the situation from the beginning.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by Forboding Angel » 09 Mar 2011, 21:41

Yeah, like I said, it all makes sense now and is perfectly understandable. As I mentioned as well, I don't have a vested interested here, I just wanted to know what was going on before drawing a (wrong) conclusion (and yes, it would have been entirely opposite from what the actual facts of the matter were). I also figured that if I bothered to ask, others wouldn't need to, so yeah. To everyone, I appreciate the insights into what was going on here.

"Ambiguous threads in MY forum? Not bloody likely!" :P
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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: Ok guys, here's the deal

Post by Saktoth » 10 Mar 2011, 08:11

The spherebot was designed with kitbashing in mind, its human-shaped, and so easy to change up its weapons or proportions. I also wanted to make a generic robot guy that could fit in other games, so i am just really delighted when i see it appear in things like that luarized FPS unit project, instead of some awful OTA model as used to be the case with these things.

But your work on the texture is just fantastic, its better than anything we can do and, frankly, one of the reasons i have persisted in reusing the model is because it looks so damn good.

I mean license aside entirely (and you've been really great about that stuff), I'd be really interested to get your thoughts on the current spherebot 'family'. Issues of differentiation, the quality and appropriateness of the texture re-use, and where to go with the model, not just because i'd like to hear any objections or thoughts you might have, but because i'd like to do a better job and if there is anyone else that knows the model and has something useful to say on the topic, its you. I know you didnt have much to say about it last time we talked, but clearly its something you've been thinking about.

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