S:44 Dump

[Nemo]

Yeesh. For all the people tweaking out about the lack of nazi imagery...get a life, eh? It's a game. Not having explicitly nazi symbols planted all over the game is not going to change the quality of the gameplay. As for the hypocrisy of including hammer and sickle...same anaswer: whatever. Not including nazi images saves us hassle from the people who are strongly offended by that particular symbolism. Like it or not, the percentage of people who react strongly against nazi symbols is rather higher than those who react in a similar way to communist or soviet ones. Deal. if you're so upset by it that you can no longer play S44, either don't play it, or download the game and make your own version with swastikas planted all over everything.


As for the inclusion of SS and such: unit abilities in spring are difficult enough to balance apart between entirely separate units, let alone a panther commanded by a waffen SS team and a panther commanded in a regular panzer batallion. I mean, if you really wanted to you could give the SS one some new paintjob and some marginally better stats, but the basic issue would be the fact that without destroying any kind of suspension of disbelief, you're not going to be able to make those two units different enough to justify the work involved in creating them and wedging them into the design. P.S. UNIT BLOOAAAAAT.

[SpikedHelmet]

1) The SS was a large organization. Yes, they were the ones that rounded up Jews to be sent to concentration camps. However, and this is the important point, the SS that we're talking about is the Waffen-SS, which was the war-fighting SS. The Waffen-SS wasn't in charge of committing atrocities.

Incorrect.

The Waffen-SS originated from the Freikorps (the organized band of roaming thugs in the early 30s who were responsible for much of the violent suppression of political opponents). During the war the Waffen SS was tasked with the most brutal assignments in Nazi-occupied territories. While the Wehrmacht served mainly military purposes (though they're not without their share of brutality" it was the SS which was tasked with such things as rounding up Jews and political dissidents, punishing populations, gathering slave labour, cleansing areas for re-population by Germans, etc. For instance, SS-Totenkopf (Death's Head) was tasked with overseeing the concentration and death camps throughout the war.

Essentially, the SS was the NSDAP's personal military and as such carried out the party's personal, often non-military agenda. The SS was also declared a criminal organization post-war (whereas the Wehrmacht was not) because of the war crimes.

3) The good Waffen-SS divisions were the elite forces of the Wehrmacht in 1944. There were also divisions that fought just as well as the SS divisions - Panzer Lehr on the western front, for example - but generally the SS divisions were considered the shock troops of the German armed forces as were used as such.

Only a handful of SS formations were considered "elite" (and then, mostly Germanic formations). Many SS units through to the end of the war were not seen in this way and received 2nd-hand equipment.

4) Since the Waffen-SS were considered elite, they received better equipment, were supplied better and more consistently, and had the first pick of recruits. This explains much of why they fought better in general. Personally, I feel that it has more to do with these factors, and with the pride and espirit de corps associated with being in an elite unit, than with any "indoctrination in Nazi ideology" factors. Somehow, I just can't accept the argument that being indoctrinated in Nazi ideology makes one a superior soldier - that sounds like just the sort of thing a Nazi would believe.

In one of the many ironic twists of the war, by 1945 60% of the SS was composed of foreign volunteers and conscripts, ie former slave labourers who vowed to fight on the battlefield rather than starve to death in concentration camps, as well as varied other nationalities who volunteered for one reason or another (ie, Indian nationalists who volunteered in order to fight the British Empire and drive it out of India). Even Jews attempted to join and/or ally with the SS and the NSDAP in order to fight the British who at the time controlled Palestine - they were, however, uninformed about the policy of extermination of their race, and were rejected.

Most of what made the SS "elite" (those formations that were elite, that is) was their dedication to the Reich. Overall they received only slightly more training than regular Wehrmacht soldiers (and this training was constantly reduced as the war dragged on and the need for more soldiers became overwhelming). The SS-Hitlerjugend, for instance, was composed entirely of children. Children aren't very good soldiers (atleast they weren't back then before the popularity of video games) but were feared combatants because of their incredibly overzealous determination and absolute brutality in combat. Whereas more ordinary soldiers of the regular military would usually (but not always) not hesitate to surrender when faced with incredible odds, SS troops would routinely fight until the bitter end, charged with the knowledge that they were fighting for their Fuhrer.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. There were Wehrmacht units who are far more deserving of the "elite" title (Panzer Lehr like you said, Grossdeutschland) and when it came to actual battle statistics, from what I've mostly seen, the most "elite" formations in the German military were the Fallschirmjaeger, Luftwaffe Paratroop units reverted to a more traditional infantry role. These were really the cream of the crop and particularly in Italy they proved themselves perhaps the best conventional forces in the world. So if there was to be German elites it would be them, not the SS (though the SS are probably more symbolic)

In either case we've deemed German elites unecessary. Germany's "eliteness" will be its ability to build large bunker fortifications. And if you want "elite German combat units" then you're just going to have to play better, and then you'll be "elite" :)

[smoth]

In either case we've deemed German elites unecessary. Germany's "eliteness" will be its ability to build large bunker fortifications. And if you want "elite German combat units" then you're just going to have to play better, and then you'll be "elite" :)

I liked this part, it made me lol in a good way.

[Warlord Zsinj]

Is it just me or did my earlier post spontaneously combust.

I'd say I dreamt posting it, except there it is being quoted in Smoth's post...

[Felix the Cat]

stuff

Half those facts are demonstrably false, the other half are questionable, and another half are misleading.

However, it's pretty clear that the entire discussion is irrelevant to S44 and especially to the beautiful art that Spiked, Yuritch, Flozi, and others are producing. If you'd like to continue it, we can continue on the S44 forums... which can be found here.

[Neddie]

Felix, where did you pull the third half from?

[Guessmyname]

*points*

Probably from that little patch of logical impossibility over there

[FLOZi]

Can you guess what it is yet? (UV mapping is pretty much all I'm doing atm, and yeah, its far from perfect)

[smoth]

looks good and tight.

[chillaaa]

A tank! weee i win!

[Snipawolf]

Churchill, amirite?

Edit: Yar, must be churchill, just logged into the lobby.

[FLOZi]

Churchill, amirite?

Edit: Yar, must be churchill, just logged into the lobby.

But that's cheating.

[SpikedHelmet]

Half those facts are demonstrably false, the other half are questionable, and another half are misleading.

Care to elaborate?

[chillaaa]

Elaborating on the 3 halves is definitely necessary.

[Felix the Cat]

Half those facts are demonstrably false, the other half are questionable, and another half are misleading.

Care to elaborate?

As soon as I get around to setting up an off-topic section on our forums... speaking of which, I should probably switch us to phpBB when I have some time.

[Neddie]

Half those facts are demonstrably false, the other half are questionable, and another half are misleading.

Care to elaborate?

As soon as I get around to setting up an off-topic section on our forums... speaking of which, I should probably switch us to phpBB when I have some time.

Do it NOW.

[Felix the Cat]

I'll do it now, if we can interpret "now" to mean "Friday"...

[1v0ry_k1ng]

hey i dropped in for a minute and saw the new platoon system, so you might have rifle platoons or MG platoons... this is also a balanceable method of including specialist troops- for example, SS and volksgrenader squads that lack the flexibility of normal squadrens but are useful in certain places.

[FLOZi]

Overpowered by FUNK!



British - Cromwell Mk VI - Close Support tank with 95mm Howitzer

[Felix the Cat]

A reminder for those of you who want to share opinions, ask questions, or make suggestions regarding gameplay mechanics - http://spring1944.com/forums/you can find the official S:44 forums here.[/url] They're pretty lonely right now - help us turn them from lonely to lively by posting your opinions!

*Forums soon to be made not shitty, as soon as I get some time to install phpBB. That should happen tomorrow...