EvoRts, Sound stuff... aswell as balancing issues

[dinocool]

Ok, firstly. This mod PWNS~!

but there are a few things that need a look at.

ok, firstly sound...

The sound volume is ludicrous, is it positional?
i'm sitting at the start of the game exploring stuff, and i hear a deafening BANG! i freak out, look around and see nothing... turns out the explosion came from the other side of the map 0.o.

secondly... FX consistency???
for the most part, the game looks like a bizarre fireworks display :S, although admittedly, it was a nice change to the standard oranges and yellows of a battlefield, some of the attacks looks BIZARRE, as in a purple, shotgun sounding bullet and the death effect for the factory. it reminds me of kernel panic.

thirdly, pricing...

Certain buildings seem OP for their price, (I'm talking bout shields and Turrets), as spamming and porcing with these is quite easy, due to their low cost vs capabilities.

other then that, this mod owns~!! especially since RAI can use it, so no boring times waiting for ppl on the lobby to play it ^.^.

I'd love to get in contact with the dev. of this mod to see if i could help out.

[KaiserJ]

hihi! welcome! (i maek the models)

not sure on the sound issue, it could be engine related, i'll let forb handle that one.

our mod is notorious for the fireworks explosions; at this point, it would almost be sacrilege the change them however, a normalization of projectiles actually isn't a bad idea, from the standpoint of "what exactly is my tank shooting?"

for balancing issues, i won't claim to be an expert... but any specific suggestions as to possible adjustments will certainly be considered. at this point, we're looking for all the feedback we can get, even "crazy" ideas may be considered ^^

anyways thanks for the attention... next major update will probably feature a whole new lab, among other interesting things :D i hope you can come and beta test with us.

cheers and thanks for the kind words!

[dinocool]

Hey, thanks for the speedy response.

I think the sound issue is an engine bug (due to it occuring in another mod aswell)

So you make the fabulous models?? awesome~!!

i love how all the models fit the same style (unlike CA (but, its not there fault :)))!!!!

just one little suggestion though, its very hard from the standard TA view, to see some of the detail, i think this is due to the units being too bright, with no contrast... i have a suggestion to fix this though, perhaps on the edges of the units texture, (edges of the model) use a lighter color, and the rest of the model could be darker. this would define the model alot better and really show off the detail you've put into them~!!! (just my opinion)

on the issue of balancing, i could tweak settings and then send them to you or forb. (perhaps upload them to svn?)

only prob with that is, its very hard to test settings against an AI as i still havent been able to play a game with others so far

i'd also be glad to join the team as a modeler and coder for the mod :D
(I know c++, willing to learn lua and am O.K with blender)

anyways keep up the good work~!

[Forboding Angel]

Hehe, as kaiser said, thanks for the kind words

Regarding sounds... the new 3d sounds thing must have a different effect on different sound cards, cause to me everything sounds pretty much normal, but to others they seem to be all haphazard. I have a 7.1 audigy, maybe that has something to do with it. Anyway, there really isn't anythign I can do about sound wierdness, it has everything to do with the engine (it's worth noting that you are the first to report this -- with evo).

As far as balancing, up until recently I have been doing the balancing, and so far the balance has been subpar. As of pa24 google_frog started helping me a bit with it, and now, I've pretty much placed the balancing mantle on his shoulders, I'm simply not good enough to think it all through. As such, I would like to stick to him alone (at least initially) for balancing, however, if you were to talk to him about balance suggestions of course that would be fine with me. Tbh balancing is one of the things I hate to do the most (that comes second after uvmapping models ;p) and tbh, as long as gameplay flows nicely, and has a clear/defined purpose and is most importantly, fun, then I prefer to keep my nose out of it altogether.

So basically synopsis on that is, talk to google_frog. If you guys wanted to partner up on it, hell that's fine with me.

Textures: Hmm it's partly my fault, I told kaiser to use grey as a base color initially, and it never occurred to me to suggest using multiple colors for stand outishness, so I'll take the blame for that. There has been talk of going back and doing a revamp of the unit textures, but for now what we have is fine at least until we get all the units in game. At that point, we can take a look at it again and have a more objective viewpoint (imo anyway).

Testing vs AI, heh. I know the feeling ;p

I about had a heart attack when I saw that you know c++ and are willing to learn lua. Tbh, that is a godsend, as we need someone on the team for lua, badly. So if you wanna jump in on that, as far as I'm concerned, you're hired .

Now, about modeling. Kaiser as you know is the modeler. I don't and I don't think I have have placed any constraints on him, and tbh I don't intend to ever start, that said, if you would like to get together with him on that, and if he likes what you can do, then once again, as far as I'm concerned, you're hired! ;p However, keep in mind, in the modelling and texturing department, imo, kaiser has the last word, so he is the one to talk to.

If you join the lobby, /join #evolution and look for me or [MR]E_rection (kaiser).

I really hope this works out, cause we could really use more people on the team. Regarding svn commit access, we'll flesh that out once kaiser has had a chance to talk to you. Deal? ;p

[Forboding Angel]

Oh damn, I completely forgot to address FX.

Many of the effects are leftovers from "pre-kaiser" evo. As a result I have been replacing stuff here and there, and as such units with the same cannon types generally shoot the same effect (or very similar). However, the crusher (antiassualt tank) still has the same projectile effect that it had over a year ago.

Gimmie time It takes a while to come up with ideas of what stuff should look like ;p

One of the large goals of evo has always been for it to be visually exciting. For example, view a demo of a game between 2 or more human players. It is anything but boring to watch. While many of the effects can be fine tuned, they are supposed to look somewhat cartoony and melodramatic, and it's one of the things that most people like about it right off the bat.

But I'm tweaking them and changing them around, but it takes time

[dinocool]

Deal

Was poking around lua, it seems simple enough (more so then c++)

i'm sure i dont know everything about it though.

I always found the hardest part about learning any new language was learning all the functions.

for c++ atleast, theres google . For spring... theres a bunch of wiki's with outdated info. (afaik)

ah well, never really develed into the inner working of spring , but it should prove interesting.

I guess what really got me excited about this game was that, straight off from the bat the game had a real polished feel about it (in comparison with say... CA or BA). Now, this doesn't appeal to me, but to my friends who laugh at me for playing games with crummy gfx and coding for 2D games. This for me felt like a game i could show them, AND they'd play!!!

Along with those things, i really love to help in the idea department. As far as i can see, this mod is still really in its fledgling state, and you seem to be taking steps slowly, building a solid foundation before moving on. The whole concept of your mod suggests this (evolution).

I have heaps of ideas already buzzing through my head, but before i put finger to keyboard, i think i'll take a bit more time to understand the direction of the mod altogether.

I might for starters, code some things for the mod in my own folder and post screens .ect as examples of what i've gone and changed, and perhaps if you like what you see i'll become a more permanent member of the team.

You must also understand that i'm moving into my last year of high school, and due to this will probably be busy alot of the time .

Oh well, glad to talk to such bright and optimistic people.

~Dinocool. Peace.

EDIT: just saw your lil FX part.

Yeah, i understand where your coming from, the same old dull orange explosion gets tiresome after a while, so why not spice it up? i might take a look at LUPS (i presume thats what you use) and tweak some of the existing FX.

just some feedback on some of the current effects,

the factory explosion: I Loved It.

It felt so rewarding destroying those factories to see that colorful explosion. Albeit it detracted from any serious nature i had about the game, giving it a Kernel Panic feel . But at the same time i was left there thinking... so thats what LUPS can do. The only down side to this effect its its over use, every factory uses it. So after the third or so factory, it looses its reward. My first suggestion would either, to increase the costs of factories, making them extremely tactical to use OR limit the effect to such buildings as the Command Factory (I think thats what it is (the starting factory)). Also another interesting idea is that each building type has a different death FX. for example Defensive placements have a Greenish plume explosion, Mex have a Purplish Firework explosion. In this way from a color message we can key players into knowing what exactly they've been destroying . idk, it may be a little cartoony.

Another suggestion, is to have STRICT weapon types. so you have units, and you have weapons. each different type of weapon has a set look. so for example you have Plasma weapons, defined (in the game at the moment) With white, rather large projectiles. Then you have Flames, defined with a bluish to red/orange flame. This enables people to get a message via color. so they can, at a glance know the potentials of a weapon. "Oh Crap, plasma weapons, their strong against Heavy armor, better send in the fast units to avoid their shots"
.ect.

Ah well, just a load of ramble from me

~Dinocool (AGAIN)

[KaiserJ]

bit of a backstory on models and textures :

when i originally started working with forb, it was as a request to do remodelling on a mod he had already put in a ton of work on... check out evo version 1.09 if you'd like to see it. the whole thing was that i thought evo was amazingly fun even on my first play, and i wanted to help.

as the modelling went on, i started asking stuff like "oh what if it did this, what if this did that" and the mod started to slowly change. i think forb also was a bit sick of working on and refining the balance of "old evo" (just a guess) because at this point, we've ended up somewhere completely different, and i would think, even more fun.

so yeah. evo used to be a two faction game, and still could be in the future, because as it stands we have enough models for the other faction to choke a horse with (just not textured / unwrapped); the problem is that there's only one of me, and regardless of my enthusiasm, my content creation is limited by time.

certainly we can use another artist; hell, we could use another 10!

as far as the mod goes right now... basically we're looking at incorporating one more lab, a "start tower" so that you can pick what lab you start with (check out NotA mod for clarification) and then a teching system where you'll be able to build a "research facility" or the like next to a lab in order for it to be able to build an additional advanced set of units, as well as base buildings and giant cannons etc. this should increase the depth of gameplay, especially for team games. each lab is also getting a boost of basic units.


something that'll come from the new "allterrain" lab

anyhow, its friday afternoon; knowing me i'll be inebriated/incapacitated until sunday afternoon, at which point i'll be on the lobby in #evolution, probably working on models and stuff and we can maek discuss.

cheers!

[Google_Frog]

secondly... FX consistency???

Well non of the weapons are actually like each other. Some shots are faster, longer ranged etc.. and are generally unique. I agree the fx spam could be a bit much though.

thirdly, pricing...

Well I'd like to test balance issues. I'm not claiming that Evo is balanced but turrets would be the last thing I would thing of as OP as there's always arty. Then again it needs testing and you may well be right.

[Forboding Angel]

Don't bother looking into lups, as Evo doesn't use it (and I'd like to keep it that way tbh). Lups is somewhat useless for primary effects because it has tons of issues with ati video cards. Everything in evo at the moment is done with CEG.

Concerning factory explosions, RAI is the only ai that builds tons of them like that, humans as a general won't, it's much more cost effective to use ORBs to assist building.

Strict weapontypes isn't something I'm interested in, simply because it's visually boring, and severely limits what you can do. However you are right, the lrpc and the tanks shooting the white ball both being called plasma is silly (actually it was jsut a mistake on my part because I forgot to change the descriptions).

How it works is this. Anything that uses that same type of shot (that is to say, like the heavy defensive turret and the fatso (assault tank)) uses the same ceg. That part is non-negotiable because it promotes uniformity. In all reality, most of this stuff is a plasma shot, and if I were to take the effects off, things would get pretty boring, pretty fast.

But as google mentioned, the shots themselves are very unique to one another, and as a result it is best for each one that is completely different to have a different ceg.

Some of them need cleaning up, there is no doubt about that, and actually I just changed up the shot that the anti-assault tank uses, so that it is less HUEG and IN YOUR FACE (uses different particles now too... much nicer looking).

To me "HUEG" and "IN YOUR FACE" translate into effect spam, so I'm trying to shore that up now that I have some time to actually do it.

@balance, I tend to agree with google on that. That doesn't mean that all will stay that way tho.... It really just kinda depends on what google has planned for them though. The main reason that the defenses are as powerful as they are is because total base dominance is actually pretty easy to achieve if they aren't. You may or may not have noticed, but the only way you're going to out and out destroy a base, is either assault units or arty (or both), cause everything else will get shredded (which is kinda the point).

Anyway... I'm rambling...

Feel free to mess with the effects. If you make a new one, jsut save a new .tdf file named the same name as your effect, and it can be implemented easily

[MidKnight]

Don't bother looking into lups, as Evo doesn't use it (and I'd like to keep it that way tbh). Lups is somewhat useless for primary effects because it has tons of issues with ati video cards. Everything in evo at the moment is done with CEG.

As a proud owner of an ATi HD 4870, I have got to disagree with your statement.

Also, LUPS effects are awesome if used sparingly and thoroughly debugged.

[Forboding Angel]

Also, LUPS effects are awesome if used sparingly and thoroughly debugged.

The only thing I would use lups effects for, is passive stuff (like jet trails, or glowing spheres, where it doesn't matter if it shows up or not).

@MK, lups has issues on a LOT of ati cards, just because yours doesn't have issues with it doesn't make you the rule. In this case, it makes you the exception (It also has issues on "some" nvidia hardware")

thoroughly debugged

Unfortunately, that makes it not worth the time taken to implement.

If someone wants to add lups effects, go ahead, be my guest, but don't use lups on anything particularly important. In other words, use lups only on things that don't matter whether it shows up or not. Having broken effects is nothing short of embarrassing, and I tend to gravitate towards things that work regardless of the circumstance.

[Jay_sound]

Hello.

I am Jay, a sound designer who has just come on board with this project to enhance the audio :)

You are right, there are some sounds which clip/peak and needs some normalization. It results in it sounding crazily loud, or sometimes maybe normal, depending on each users audio configuration.

I'll be working on sound effects and the next release should offer significantly enhanced audio, nice on the ears :)

Jay

[Forboding Angel]

Hey, welcome! I'm working on getting all the unit explosions in one place. Sigh, time consuming :-/

[Forboding Angel]

Ok, I just committed them. In the weapons folder Unit_Explosions.lua houses all of the explosions that happen when a unit cooks off.

And if the game crashes when a certain unit explodes, that means that I fucked up somewhere (SHould be all good tho).

[Jay_sound]

Cool.

Audio is going well :) This should be killer.

Jay

[Forboding Angel]

yay, can't wait to hear it ;p

Edit: Jay, I should also mention that currently when units dies it's rather standardized, and by that I mean that many units will use the smae explosion. If you want, you can copy and paste death explosions that are already in unit_explosions.lua if you want to give particular units individual explosion sounds.

THe "Name tag doesn't really do anything useful so it wouldn't need to be changes, just the actual name of the definition. e.g.

smallbuilding = {

stuff= "blah",

}

In this case, to make the explosions accessible via the units, all you would need to do is change smallbuilding to whatever you wanted (because you don't want to define the same thing twice of course).

It really is pretty flexible. Also, do you have much experience with using svn? If you already are familiar with it, I can give you commit access (or you could always make patches... either way is fine with me). That way you wouldn't ahve to work around my various commits and merges and crap like that.

[KaiserJ]

hey jay :D welcome to the team; can't wait to see what you come up with!

[Jay_sound]

Thanks Kaiser

And yeah I have SVN installed, have used before. I havn't set up Evo on SVN yet, will do it shortly.

Should I commit whenever I make changes / whenever I make significant changes / or just what makes sense to me within reason?

[Forboding Angel]

Info pm'ed btw

Whatever works for you tbh, Smaller ones are easier to pick through (not likes that's an issue though). You'll find that most of my commits are huge because generally I'm having to make sweeping changes/improvements (Like the one form today where I recalculated the normals for all the models... sigh), but I also do a lot of small ones as well, so yeah... kind of a turkeyshoot there

Oh also, the trac tool is here: http://redmine.evolutionrts.info

TO login, use your svn user/pass.

[Jay_sound]

Should have an audio (sound effects) update in 7 days ready for feedback.

Will update the audio in the SVN then and let you know when it's been updated.