Had my first teamgame of XTA the other night after Day was talking about playing XTA and I specced him 1v1. What was it, Day, me, Machio and some random vs pintle, mong, defender and some other guy? And WHO GOT SPANKED!Yeah, XTA community = Knox, Mong, colourblind, Lfing hosting a big game several times a night which is filled 50% by regulars and 50% by people that get spanked.
Absolute Annihilation 2.3 Beta 2
Moderator: Moderators
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Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
Someone mentioned that BA has kbots and vehicles equally viable on most maps:
I want to say that this, in my view, is not desirable. They should both have their own place. If a map completely rules out one type or the other, I consider the map defective. Ideally, maps should be developed in a way such that kbots and vehicles are both viable, but not necessarily for the same things.
Just because this is Spring and suddenly all kinds of funky terrains are possible, doesn't mean that the old principles of OTA map design no longer apply. Some map makers seem to think that they're innovating or something when they make a map that's impossible to traverse using normal units. There should be distinct, planned zones of:
Only spider/all-terrain movement possible
Only kbot movement possible
kbot movement fast, vehicle movement difficult
vehicle movement possible at full speed
Putting a bunch of parameters into a map generator and calling what it pops out a map, is not real map design.
Kbots are great for rough terrain. Take the port of the OTA Sherwood map, I forget what it's called. The kbots can go on the hills, thereby giving them a large advantage. However, on the low ground, vehicles are a better choice. You can use one or the other and probably survive, but for the best advantage, you should use both. Kbots making sneak attacks over hills are deadly. Kbots can also be used to harass units on the ground beneath them, not only because the vehicles can't easily return fire, but because kbots generally have a longer accurate range, at least at L1.
Kbots have many properties of modern-day infantry. You use them on mountains and in situations where a lot of maneuverability is required. Tanks are the opposite. They are fast, but not very maneuverable. They have excellent firepower, but not as much range. They have a lot of brute force, but can't really be used with a lot of finesse (eg, sniper vs goliath).
That said, I'm not claiming that the current balance is perfect. It will be a main focus for my changes in 2.3. Clearly, many things (FAVs, latnk, etc) are out of whack.
I want to say that this, in my view, is not desirable. They should both have their own place. If a map completely rules out one type or the other, I consider the map defective. Ideally, maps should be developed in a way such that kbots and vehicles are both viable, but not necessarily for the same things.
Just because this is Spring and suddenly all kinds of funky terrains are possible, doesn't mean that the old principles of OTA map design no longer apply. Some map makers seem to think that they're innovating or something when they make a map that's impossible to traverse using normal units. There should be distinct, planned zones of:
Only spider/all-terrain movement possible
Only kbot movement possible
kbot movement fast, vehicle movement difficult
vehicle movement possible at full speed
Putting a bunch of parameters into a map generator and calling what it pops out a map, is not real map design.
Kbots are great for rough terrain. Take the port of the OTA Sherwood map, I forget what it's called. The kbots can go on the hills, thereby giving them a large advantage. However, on the low ground, vehicles are a better choice. You can use one or the other and probably survive, but for the best advantage, you should use both. Kbots making sneak attacks over hills are deadly. Kbots can also be used to harass units on the ground beneath them, not only because the vehicles can't easily return fire, but because kbots generally have a longer accurate range, at least at L1.
Kbots have many properties of modern-day infantry. You use them on mountains and in situations where a lot of maneuverability is required. Tanks are the opposite. They are fast, but not very maneuverable. They have excellent firepower, but not as much range. They have a lot of brute force, but can't really be used with a lot of finesse (eg, sniper vs goliath).
That said, I'm not claiming that the current balance is perfect. It will be a main focus for my changes in 2.3. Clearly, many things (FAVs, latnk, etc) are out of whack.
The point of this is that for most games (or rather against most people) if you use kbots or vehicles you will win, if you know what you are doing. For most maps, execpt the extremely flat, or the extremely hilly a good player will make both vehicles and kbots (and usually air) before going level 2. At the highest level one start will probably be better for a particular map, but it is no longer KBOT ALWAYS > VEHICLES or SPAEM GATOR or lose, SPAEM FLASH or lose, or, more recently, SPAEM WEZEL or lose. Which you start with, at the highest level, depends mainly on which would be better at raiding in the start. Later on, if you haven't already won, if you went kbots to start, for example, vehicles would be a good choice as a second lab, as they have artillery, stumpies, and levelers (Janus might need some more work, in BA at least). The first two are great for attacking defenses and the last for attackign enemy swarms. Air should be built every single game IMO until people start building AA regularly.Caydr wrote:Someone mentioned that BA has kbots and vehicles equally viable on most maps:
The BIG point is spamming the same unit over and over won't win you games anymore and there is more freedom of inovation for new strategies/more complex strategies with BA. That's why the experienced players like it, it doesn't get old so quickly. Caydr, really what you should do is play some BA under one of your smurf accounts on a variety of maps, you will see that much of what you suggested above has been already implemented there. 1v1s on the following maps: Arctic Planes, Greenhaven Remake, Comet Catcher Redux, Lowland Crossing, Aquatic Divide, Battle for PlanetXVII, Brazillian Battlefield, Cooper Hill, MoonQ10, Painted Desert. 2v2 on maps like small divide, Lowland Crossing, Comet Catcher Redux 3v3 on maps like Deltasiege Dry, MoonQ20, Xan the Terra V3. I'm sure I've left some out of this list. But these are the kind of games AA should be balanced for, and BA was balanced for.
Now that AA has been taken over by the masses and balanced for the masses that it would probably be most logical just to devote you time to working on a different mod, or even starting an entirely new one, otherwise it seems like that this strife will never let up.
By the way Cadyr, what exactly is your day job? Just curious.
By the way Cadyr, what exactly is your day job? Just curious.
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
I would have written a much larger post to say this, essentially. Caydr, your contribution is never underestimated. AA is your work, and BA is your work too, with some edits. For a long time, your efforts have improved the whole, which is the engine the maps and the mods.Neuralize wrote:Now that AA has been taken over by the masses and balanced for the masses that it would probably be most logical just to devote you time to working on a different mod, or even starting an entirely new one, otherwise it seems like that this strife will never let up.
But you suck at balancing. There is no offense here. I suck at many things too.
So some members of the community stepped up on your latest "AA development pause" and created BA. Out of respect for you, nobody forked it while you were activelly developing it. BA never looked like a fork, it was a continuation, an evolution.
Now you want to come back and continue AA where you left off, transforming BA into a fork. While AA is your mod and you have every right to do so, what you can't do is pretend that you are still improving the whole. Because you're not. This will bring strife, division, unbalance. Maybe you can reclaim AA's absolute supremacy as the only played mod. Is that what you want?
Balancing is very important for the good players, and it can ONLY ever be achieved by playtesting. Warcraft 3, one of the best balanced games ever, took dozens of patches to rebalance after tournament observations and interviews with the top world players. And this is a professional company that run a months-long beta test, after which they release a game and a year later an expansion, and 1 year after that there was still subtle balancing being done.
Your approach of witchcraft and "formulae" (lol) is the uneducated approach to complex systems. It just won't work, ever, no matter how much you refine your formulas.
The low level of importance you give balance (by leaving dramatically unbalanced versions out for months) shows you're a busy man who doesn't play much (or just really likes seeing jeffies a lot). In any way, now many members of the community have better, are used to better, and look poorly upon your returning to old AA and the mess that it was.
Caydr, you have taken AA as far as you can. If you are gonna completelly redesign it, then its another mod. If its THIS mod, then you can't improve it, because the improvement it needs is balance. This is plain obvious for many ppl, and the response you got from the other players should have hinted at that.
The only question that remains is how long will it take you to understand this, and how long will you keep beating the dead horse of balancing by formulae.
AA is a barnacle in a pool that dreams of being high up with lots of leeches desperatly trying to clamour to it, ultimately crushing it.
I know you wont read this post as you insist that all my posts are barnacles in pools that are too garbled to read, even the ones I spellcheck, you just dont seem to acknowledge their existence out of ignorance but I'll say ti anyway.
AA doesnt really have a design or even a direction anymore, BA is moving forward and thigns are progressing.
Also your views on maps are ok, but your applying them to OTA maps and expecting them to be the same in spring and then dont realize that what you say about roles is still true when you look at what people like foreboding say, and instead end up all ignorant and stubborn and insist the OTA way was good.
Of course your going to hit a huge wall when Command engine and Supcom are involved. You'll be laughed off by the main modding team of supcom when you repeat the same stuff to them, and you'll be totally flummoxed when the full 3D Comamnd Engine maps are all flatpacked and they're complaining about slope tolerances.
And for those who dont think domination is bad, I would guess these are people who play nothing but AA, people who dont realize that when 805+ of all games are AA its impossible to get a game of anything else going unless you arrange it in person or you personally know the mods creator and wanna playtest.
Lets imagine 90% of all games played are XTA. Everyone thinks AA is unbalanced and rubbish, but you love it and you think XTA is unbalanced and rubbish but everybody ignores you, and there's only ever 2 AA games per day. Would you still say mod domination is bad? Or would you be trying to encourage a healthy mod distribution with a more spread out variety of games?
Caution to the wind is right. You have taken many other creations, patched them together and worked out some kinks and it has become its own creation. AA has flown the nest. Now your trying to reel it back in. Do you even recognize BA as a mod in its own right? What about your other projects? Is it worth taking AA 2.23 and replicating everything that the BA maintainers did but without the masses of testing and discussion already done? And what would you achieve but making yourself look old and bitter over BA? Maintining AA and abolition while BA exists looks form the outsider like soemone trying to relcaim their status as leader of spring modding popularity for selfish reasons.
What you dont understand is that players themselves have changed somewhat and I dont think AA can really return to the dominance it used to have and you'll never be able to regain the crown without denting your image badly. Caydr you had it and you've lost it. And your attempts to get it back by AA 2.3 could actually be the one thing that totally kills off AA and maybe BA.
And if your really so brilliant, why dont you go finish GEM and wow us with that. Afterall if you dont suck at balancing and your the best then you'll be able to make GEM replace AA and BA as the most played mod.
I believe your motivation is in turmoil and you'd be best stepping back and asking yourself why you are continuing AA to 2.3, I feel there is very much you need to face up to that may not be related to spring at all.
I know you wont read this post as you insist that all my posts are barnacles in pools that are too garbled to read, even the ones I spellcheck, you just dont seem to acknowledge their existence out of ignorance but I'll say ti anyway.
AA doesnt really have a design or even a direction anymore, BA is moving forward and thigns are progressing.
Also your views on maps are ok, but your applying them to OTA maps and expecting them to be the same in spring and then dont realize that what you say about roles is still true when you look at what people like foreboding say, and instead end up all ignorant and stubborn and insist the OTA way was good.
Of course your going to hit a huge wall when Command engine and Supcom are involved. You'll be laughed off by the main modding team of supcom when you repeat the same stuff to them, and you'll be totally flummoxed when the full 3D Comamnd Engine maps are all flatpacked and they're complaining about slope tolerances.
And for those who dont think domination is bad, I would guess these are people who play nothing but AA, people who dont realize that when 805+ of all games are AA its impossible to get a game of anything else going unless you arrange it in person or you personally know the mods creator and wanna playtest.
Lets imagine 90% of all games played are XTA. Everyone thinks AA is unbalanced and rubbish, but you love it and you think XTA is unbalanced and rubbish but everybody ignores you, and there's only ever 2 AA games per day. Would you still say mod domination is bad? Or would you be trying to encourage a healthy mod distribution with a more spread out variety of games?
Caution to the wind is right. You have taken many other creations, patched them together and worked out some kinks and it has become its own creation. AA has flown the nest. Now your trying to reel it back in. Do you even recognize BA as a mod in its own right? What about your other projects? Is it worth taking AA 2.23 and replicating everything that the BA maintainers did but without the masses of testing and discussion already done? And what would you achieve but making yourself look old and bitter over BA? Maintining AA and abolition while BA exists looks form the outsider like soemone trying to relcaim their status as leader of spring modding popularity for selfish reasons.
What you dont understand is that players themselves have changed somewhat and I dont think AA can really return to the dominance it used to have and you'll never be able to regain the crown without denting your image badly. Caydr you had it and you've lost it. And your attempts to get it back by AA 2.3 could actually be the one thing that totally kills off AA and maybe BA.
And if your really so brilliant, why dont you go finish GEM and wow us with that. Afterall if you dont suck at balancing and your the best then you'll be able to make GEM replace AA and BA as the most played mod.
I believe your motivation is in turmoil and you'd be best stepping back and asking yourself why you are continuing AA to 2.3, I feel there is very much you need to face up to that may not be related to spring at all.
*checks lobby*
*sees that most of the games are BA or AA*
I am not worried about the future of AA at all. BA IS an AA rip-off, and as such, the most played mod is still AA.
Actually, Caydr could just inplement the oh-so popular changes made by BA into his version of AA and be happy with it.
There is no reason to play down caydrs achievements in modding spring and implenting balanced gameplay with TA units. Actually, his mod and its rip-offs, are the most played and most playable mods around.
These facts cant negate the tiering effects caused by endless balance itterations taking years to implement. Adjusting gameplay by play-testing is just one part of the developement process.
I would also like to play a teaser version of GEM, just for a change of pace, but there are a lot of other well done mods anyway, which nobody plays, just because AA is as dominant as it always was, GEM wont replace it.
People come here to play TA and AA or its rip-offs, offers the best experience of TA in spring today.
*sees that most of the games are BA or AA*
I am not worried about the future of AA at all. BA IS an AA rip-off, and as such, the most played mod is still AA.
Actually, Caydr could just inplement the oh-so popular changes made by BA into his version of AA and be happy with it.
There is no reason to play down caydrs achievements in modding spring and implenting balanced gameplay with TA units. Actually, his mod and its rip-offs, are the most played and most playable mods around.
These facts cant negate the tiering effects caused by endless balance itterations taking years to implement. Adjusting gameplay by play-testing is just one part of the developement process.
I would also like to play a teaser version of GEM, just for a change of pace, but there are a lot of other well done mods anyway, which nobody plays, just because AA is as dominant as it always was, GEM wont replace it.
People come here to play TA and AA or its rip-offs, offers the best experience of TA in spring today.
Everybody I know goes the toilet. Infact every house I know has a toilet and we all use toilets, people who dont have them are considered wierd.Actually, Caydr could just inplement the oh-so popular changes made by BA into his version of AA and be happy with it.
But fi given the chance everyone I know would love to be able to get rid f them and never have the need to use any form of them ever again and have food and drink just magically dissapear and enver come out the other end.
Now as usual there will always be a group of people in the world that would object to this, perhaps breaking wind is a natural process we shouldnt mess with, or depositing objects out your rear end is what god intended, or maybe it just feels nice to some people.
The same is true of AA. Early in springs history a big wad of AA players demanded it be ported to spring and set about playing it in the lobby. When new players arrived they would usually see just AA games, and thus download AA because they desperatly wanted to see TA in 3D and had to download AA to be able to play a game.
This pattern was perpetuated up untill the current day. Most players fall into 2 categories:
I love AA I like playing it
AA is ok but I wish there were more xx games
And if your really honest you'll realize its not that AA is popular, its that AA is all there is and if you dont play AA you dont play at all.
The new 3 way divid fo AA BA and XTA makes players vary their experience and makes other mods a more viable option. Players are freer to choose a game of different mods and play multiple mods rather than being stuck on a dominant mod, and its making them better players as a result. Players are diversifying and thats a good thing.
But I agree caydrs mods are the most played and most playable. But thats not caydrs fault. Infact people are playing up caydrs achievements, and caydrs achievements are one of the most disputed claims in springs history, balance in AA has always been a point thats been extremely hazy and full of flaming trolls, and the nearest semblence of agreement on balance is with the arrival of BA.
The point now is that caydr doesnt need to integrate BA into AA, and BA isnt a rip off, its AA under new management. How would you like it if your parents attitude to you reverted to a child like state and they started treating you with the responsibility of a 5 year old and taking charge of your life?
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1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
AF wrote:Now as usual there will always be a group of people in the world that would object to this, perhaps breaking wind is a natural process we shouldnt mess with, or depositing objects out your rear end is what god intended, or maybe it just feels nice to some people.Actually, Caydr could just inplement the oh-so popular changes made by BA into his version of AA and be happy with it.
AF, today you are actingup like the drama queen you are, and you are quite proficient at that i might add.
Anyway, i am in no way obliged to defend AA as a mod or caydr or his owner-ship of any mod or anything associated with any derivate of AA.
I simply wanted to tell you that i like AA for the gameplay it offers, and i can whole heartedly say that AA is what i play spring for most of the time.
There are other mods which need recognition, but my opinion is that AA is still the best implementation of TA gameplay in spring.
If i feel the need to play one of the other mods from time to time i do what you propose, setup a session, find some fellow players and play.
Caydr may have neglected the developement of AA for sometime, but that doesnt provide anybody with the right to claim AA, even under another name, as its on.
Nevertheless, that is not my issue to handle, we are debatting a none-issue here, if BA is the successor of AA so be it.
BA is NOT the messiah you are making it out to be.
You should realize that balanceing a mod is part of the actual gameplay in an opensource community.
If any mod ever didnt recieve anymore balance iteration it would soon cease to exist, as new iteration keep the flames of interes in the mod fueled.
Disputes of a mod arent a hinderence, they are its lifeblood.
Caydr did a fine job at throuwing in new sparks and sticks from time to time, all that happned during his abscense was the overthrow of his reign, as it usually happens when you dont show enough presence in your territory.
It is Caydrs task to claim his authority back, or just share it with the modders of BA.
Personally i think that caydr has a well earned right to keep the souvereignity over AA, BA, and all other AA derivates, scince he put years of work into the mod and the community.
Anyway, i am in no way obliged to defend AA as a mod or caydr or his owner-ship of any mod or anything associated with any derivate of AA.
I simply wanted to tell you that i like AA for the gameplay it offers, and i can whole heartedly say that AA is what i play spring for most of the time.
There are other mods which need recognition, but my opinion is that AA is still the best implementation of TA gameplay in spring.
If i feel the need to play one of the other mods from time to time i do what you propose, setup a session, find some fellow players and play.
Caydr may have neglected the developement of AA for sometime, but that doesnt provide anybody with the right to claim AA, even under another name, as its on.
Nevertheless, that is not my issue to handle, we are debatting a none-issue here, if BA is the successor of AA so be it.
BA is NOT the messiah you are making it out to be.
You should realize that balanceing a mod is part of the actual gameplay in an opensource community.
If any mod ever didnt recieve anymore balance iteration it would soon cease to exist, as new iteration keep the flames of interes in the mod fueled.
Disputes of a mod arent a hinderence, they are its lifeblood.
Caydr did a fine job at throuwing in new sparks and sticks from time to time, all that happned during his abscense was the overthrow of his reign, as it usually happens when you dont show enough presence in your territory.
It is Caydrs task to claim his authority back, or just share it with the modders of BA.
Personally i think that caydr has a well earned right to keep the souvereignity over AA, BA, and all other AA derivates, scince he put years of work into the mod and the community.
There's no empire, there's no overthrowing, there's no territory. I work on AA because I like to do so. I accept advice and criticism, take these into account, but at the end of the day just do the best I can with the time I have to make AA into something I consider to be enjoyable.
I worked on AA for a long time before I even made its first (OTA) public release, it was just a project for me and my brother in law to play on the home lan. He said I should put it on the internet. Many tens of thousands of downloads later, here I am. I've lost my focus, that's true, but that doesn't suddenly mean that I've lost my ability.
The vast majority of changes I've made lately have been at the request of the community. I'm trying to satisfy everyone's vision for this mod, which is why it no longer has a defined focus. I think to myself, I don't like this unit anymore, it's in the trash. I announce that in the changelog, and then there's a riot and people calling me names... so I cave to the pressure and leave things as they are, even though I know it's the wrong thing to do.
The only course of action I can take is the one that I've always wanted to avoid - paying attention only to my gut feeling and to the elites, largely ignoring everything else. This is against the spirit of open-source, but it seems to be what's necessary now that Spring and AA have become such a popular thing.
"No offense but you suck at balancing" - No, I suck at making choices people won't like and sticking to my guns when I know it's the right thing to do.
The problem is that AA is intended to be a game that anyone can pick up and play, but with a lot of depth that rewards experienced players. I try to walk the fine line between a game with instant appeal but no depth and a game that's hard to learn but with a lot of depth. AA is constantly being pulled in one direction or the other and it's gotten to the point where I have to pick which one I'm tailoring the game for and stick with it.
I worked on AA for a long time before I even made its first (OTA) public release, it was just a project for me and my brother in law to play on the home lan. He said I should put it on the internet. Many tens of thousands of downloads later, here I am. I've lost my focus, that's true, but that doesn't suddenly mean that I've lost my ability.
The vast majority of changes I've made lately have been at the request of the community. I'm trying to satisfy everyone's vision for this mod, which is why it no longer has a defined focus. I think to myself, I don't like this unit anymore, it's in the trash. I announce that in the changelog, and then there's a riot and people calling me names... so I cave to the pressure and leave things as they are, even though I know it's the wrong thing to do.
The only course of action I can take is the one that I've always wanted to avoid - paying attention only to my gut feeling and to the elites, largely ignoring everything else. This is against the spirit of open-source, but it seems to be what's necessary now that Spring and AA have become such a popular thing.
"No offense but you suck at balancing" - No, I suck at making choices people won't like and sticking to my guns when I know it's the right thing to do.
The problem is that AA is intended to be a game that anyone can pick up and play, but with a lot of depth that rewards experienced players. I try to walk the fine line between a game with instant appeal but no depth and a game that's hard to learn but with a lot of depth. AA is constantly being pulled in one direction or the other and it's gotten to the point where I have to pick which one I'm tailoring the game for and stick with it.
I'm a machinist-in-training, since about 2 months ago. Before that, I was a cleaning contractor for about 9 months. I cleaned a local bar and made an outrageous amount of money, but I no longer have the expenses I had back then and have decided to settle for a respectable job.By the way Cadyr, what exactly is your day job?
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
It is not AF that needs to realize that.Andreask wrote: You should realize that balanceing a mod is part of the actual gameplay in an opensource community.
Actually, that's the opposite of what i've always experienced. It is exactly when a game becomes stable with only very minor adjustments that true strategy discussion can flourish. Strategy comes from many observations of the same game, and it doesn't come from playing a different game every update.Andreask wrote: If any mod ever didnt recieve anymore balance iteration it would soon cease to exist, as new iteration keep the flames of interes in the mod fueled.
AA, for all its merits, was reduced to "find the jeffie" (or other overpowered unit) on each version. Gameplay only varied in maps where the overpowered units couldn't easily cross, or where proud players refused to take the easier route.
First I'll handle Andreask
Andreask, you sort of sidelined the point and went off making out totally different. I dont know what to make of it as the onyl explanation i have involves being manipulative on your behalf.
And I'm not being a drama queen, if anything I'm worried at caydr, and I'm laughing at Ivorys post (that was gold!).
Andreask I'm not sure why your posting you dont seem to be contributing anything to the discussion rather just being imposing and arguing fruitlessly. And simply making the point you enjoy AA is no reason to be here either as its unrelated.
As for 'messiah', I dont think BA is a messiah at all, I think BA is just a continuation of AA, effectively AA under new management as I said before. For one I rarely play BA at all, mostly XTA, although I do from time to time.
Now as for caydr.
In every project that gets to a certain size you will have people who like how the game currently is but not as you intended, they may have found flaws or gotten into a comfort zone insisting on the same basic playstyle and set tactics.
When you change things they dont care if its for better or worse, they'll yell and complain as loud a they can because they dont know any other way. They'll attempt to pressure you.
The masses may actually like the change they oppose but they'll never say anything unless you blend in and ask them in person pretending to be someone else.
You've been the victim of this as have most mod makers and developers, but you made the mistake of caving in to pressure. They now know that if they push hard enough you'll crack, so they end up pushing harder and harder each time testing your limits. You should put your foot down and not bother listening to them if you really believe its a good change and have reasoning, and unless they give a convincing logical explanation they're noth worth it.
First of all I'd get rid of the 'open source' phrase. any mention of the phrase can immediatly be struck down by the words 'Atari' 'copyright' 'TA Content', and for Abolition you can add 'Nintendo' and for GEM you can add 'GT Interactive' and 'Digital Reality' (IIRC its based on imperium galactica right?).
Next I'd point out that people enjoy simple games, and that unnecesary complexity impedes gameplay.
I'd also point out that whatever stuff about moving away from TA is nonsense as long as your using TA content or arm and core factions.
If your out to have fun with doing AA then I suggest you take a new approach, and instead of working on 2.23 for AA 2.3, you instead take BA and work on that with the people currently doing BA.
Be nice, share, stop others being spoilsports and sniping, and dont listen to the people who whine about your changes and give no sound justification other than nostalgia or 'because I said so'.
And be more empathetic. Sometimes your behaviour can provoke problems and although its possible you may not intend to seem that way it can show badly, and end up being seen as egotistical or self centred by others and they're hurt so they lash out and it can seem that they're doing it for no reason.
Andreask, you sort of sidelined the point and went off making out totally different. I dont know what to make of it as the onyl explanation i have involves being manipulative on your behalf.
You see thats not what you said in yoru previous post at all, you werent just saying you like AA and play it, infact thats besides the point because that has no bearing on whats being said at all.Anyway, i am in no way obliged to defend AA as a mod or caydr or his owner-ship of any mod or anything associated with any derivate of AA.
I simply wanted to tell you that i like AA for the gameplay it offers, and i can whole heartedly say that AA is what i play spring for most of the time.
There are other mods which need recognition, but my opinion is that AA is still the best implementation of TA gameplay in spring.
And I'm not being a drama queen, if anything I'm worried at caydr, and I'm laughing at Ivorys post (that was gold!).
Andreask I'm not sure why your posting you dont seem to be contributing anything to the discussion rather just being imposing and arguing fruitlessly. And simply making the point you enjoy AA is no reason to be here either as its unrelated.
As for 'messiah', I dont think BA is a messiah at all, I think BA is just a continuation of AA, effectively AA under new management as I said before. For one I rarely play BA at all, mostly XTA, although I do from time to time.
Now as for caydr.
In every project that gets to a certain size you will have people who like how the game currently is but not as you intended, they may have found flaws or gotten into a comfort zone insisting on the same basic playstyle and set tactics.
When you change things they dont care if its for better or worse, they'll yell and complain as loud a they can because they dont know any other way. They'll attempt to pressure you.
The masses may actually like the change they oppose but they'll never say anything unless you blend in and ask them in person pretending to be someone else.
You've been the victim of this as have most mod makers and developers, but you made the mistake of caving in to pressure. They now know that if they push hard enough you'll crack, so they end up pushing harder and harder each time testing your limits. You should put your foot down and not bother listening to them if you really believe its a good change and have reasoning, and unless they give a convincing logical explanation they're noth worth it.
First of all I'd get rid of the 'open source' phrase. any mention of the phrase can immediatly be struck down by the words 'Atari' 'copyright' 'TA Content', and for Abolition you can add 'Nintendo' and for GEM you can add 'GT Interactive' and 'Digital Reality' (IIRC its based on imperium galactica right?).
Next I'd point out that people enjoy simple games, and that unnecesary complexity impedes gameplay.
I'd also point out that whatever stuff about moving away from TA is nonsense as long as your using TA content or arm and core factions.
If your out to have fun with doing AA then I suggest you take a new approach, and instead of working on 2.23 for AA 2.3, you instead take BA and work on that with the people currently doing BA.
Be nice, share, stop others being spoilsports and sniping, and dont listen to the people who whine about your changes and give no sound justification other than nostalgia or 'because I said so'.
And be more empathetic. Sometimes your behaviour can provoke problems and although its possible you may not intend to seem that way it can show badly, and end up being seen as egotistical or self centred by others and they're hurt so they lash out and it can seem that they're doing it for no reason.
Its your mod. Everyone has a different view of balance. I think missile towers should hit both air and land. You don't. But neither of us is wrong. There is no such thing as a perfect balance that will suit everyone. My advice is to try and listen to as many opinions as possible - from both noobs and elites. Try to understand why they have their opinions. Let these opinions contribute as much as possible to your knowledge of how the mod works and how it is played. And then do what you think and believe is best for the mod.Caydr wrote:The only course of action I can take is the one that I've always wanted to avoid - paying attention only to my gut feeling and to the elites, largely ignoring everything else. This is against the spirit of open-source, but it seems to be what's necessary now that Spring and AA have become such a popular thing.