EE version 0.173 Final (no more stuffs)
Moderator: Moderators
Thats why I asked for something like stars. This would only be a slight extension to the pics, instead of a redone. And it will surely help a lot of people.Forboding Angel wrote:FYI, buildpics aren't gonna get redone. They have been redone about 4 times now.
Additionall there a some inconsistences. For example compare:
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I demand Laserbeams, missles and mines for everone
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Can someone write something to the gameplay related questions i asked?
Against mines i found the Ion-tanks to be usefull as long as i know roughly the area where to look.
alright as much as i hate having this brought up again i feel the need to clarify some things.
First off phyisical models won't be changed. There was a 6 month period of time when they were worked on and that would have been the time to make the "change ur models argument" (thought it wouldn't have worked since its a design decision). They are finalized as they are now and barring a serious problem with them won't be altered.
Now as to this whole tech level problem here is where i see the problem. Differention between unit or factory tech levels is mute since units don't stray into other tech levels build lists.
However hubs on the other hand are shared amongst multiple cons and could probably use some sort of differention between them. Stars or Bars in a corner could do that nicely.
As to figuring out which unit is which in the buildlist. Instead of sitting around in main, host a private game of E&E and take 5-10 min and look at the build lists. That should help u remember especially if u stick with one certain side. That and play games when u can. As much as you guys make noise about these issues they can disappear with time if you play. Right now i can list the tech 1 factories for both sides, land and air. Of course ive been playing since .14-.15 so i have an advantage. But we play against people who are noobs and have mixed forces and aren't going "WTF IS THIS MECH?!?!?" half the game and put up a fight so current methods must be working.
So in summary:
-Unit models are done. Period. End of story. Case Closed. Move on.
-Differention of hub tech levels through bars or stars could help teching and confusion issues.
-In game differences between levels are hard at first but will disappear with time. Unifiying look and design is part of the game's design doc and will not be changed end of story. People tell BA players to learn the game when they raise certain issues and so the trend continues here.
-This is Fang's mod that he is doing for fun. You don't like the direction he is taking, thats unfortunate but unless you can 100% prove ur point for a change its probably not gonna happen
NOTE: for those people who can tell units apart ingame, Fang is currently (very slowly) working on NI so if u want some input as to the design get in the E&E forum and make ur arguments. If you don't say anything now don't come complaining later that NI looks XYZ.
Edit: minor spelling and grammar.
First off phyisical models won't be changed. There was a 6 month period of time when they were worked on and that would have been the time to make the "change ur models argument" (thought it wouldn't have worked since its a design decision). They are finalized as they are now and barring a serious problem with them won't be altered.
Now as to this whole tech level problem here is where i see the problem. Differention between unit or factory tech levels is mute since units don't stray into other tech levels build lists.
However hubs on the other hand are shared amongst multiple cons and could probably use some sort of differention between them. Stars or Bars in a corner could do that nicely.
As to figuring out which unit is which in the buildlist. Instead of sitting around in main, host a private game of E&E and take 5-10 min and look at the build lists. That should help u remember especially if u stick with one certain side. That and play games when u can. As much as you guys make noise about these issues they can disappear with time if you play. Right now i can list the tech 1 factories for both sides, land and air. Of course ive been playing since .14-.15 so i have an advantage. But we play against people who are noobs and have mixed forces and aren't going "WTF IS THIS MECH?!?!?" half the game and put up a fight so current methods must be working.
So in summary:
-Unit models are done. Period. End of story. Case Closed. Move on.
-Differention of hub tech levels through bars or stars could help teching and confusion issues.
-In game differences between levels are hard at first but will disappear with time. Unifiying look and design is part of the game's design doc and will not be changed end of story. People tell BA players to learn the game when they raise certain issues and so the trend continues here.
-This is Fang's mod that he is doing for fun. You don't like the direction he is taking, thats unfortunate but unless you can 100% prove ur point for a change its probably not gonna happen
NOTE: for those people who can tell units apart ingame, Fang is currently (very slowly) working on NI so if u want some input as to the design get in the E&E forum and make ur arguments. If you don't say anything now don't come complaining later that NI looks XYZ.
Edit: minor spelling and grammar.
- 1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Trademark, I dont know if you have ever made a 3do model, but texturing them is a GIANT pain in the ass. The faces are arranged sequentially according to when they were created on the model, and when you texture them in 3do builder there is NO way to select a specific face, instead you have to scroll through every face till you find that one (they are usually in a very confused order as well). Then I have to change that texture, save and move on to the next model. This is EXTREMELY TEDIOUS and something I am not readily inclined to do at this point in time. Now it appears that the intent I had with EE was not understood by some people so I will outline it below.
EE is not about micro, yes you can micro in EE and it can sometimes make the difference but the game does not focus on micro. Unlike BA, or AA, or XTA where certain units are much more effective for a certain task, or are only used in certain exact situations where it is important to micro them, in EE this is not the case. EE is about macro strategy and force composition. It is key that you set up a force build order from your factory and leave it on repeat as well as assigning the factories mustering points. Why is this so, because where I want you to focus is on moving and "microing" your groups of units. From this end it is not critical that you be able to easily identify them, in fact you shouldnt have to. You should know from setting up the group build order what units will be in that group, now granted you might not have all of them in there but still you should have a damn good idea of what would be in there. But what about arty and stealth and such which are not something you want in a main force group.. well folks they gave us factory waypoints for more than shits and giggles. If you need a clump of stealth set a different muster point and alter you build to pump out a clump of stealth units, once you have enough switch it back, same goes for arty. As far as the other groups go you should be including rocket, plasma/cannon, anti air, and radar, as well as flame/cannon/laser all the time. Where the micro comes in is in the numbers of each unit you set up to be built, more close in build more flame/laser, more arc aoe build more rocket. Again though this is done in the build menu not on the battlefield. Even veteran players will tell you that if you have to stop and fiddle with your units in EE your already in trouble. You should know what units you have because you should know what you ordered built.. Its that simple.. I hope that explains it some..
Now 2 other points..
1. Ivory hit the nail on the head, always back up lvl 3 units they are rubbish unsupported, and the lvl 3 URC air attack is more for controlling the air space around your territory than for trying to take out fighters orbiting over your enemies base, Sams would be better suited for that, or lvl 2 air attack units which are meant to be in heavier fire situations.
2. For minefields, Id say lvl 1 artillery, lvl 1 rocket units, lvl 2 rocket units, lvl 3 rocket units, cluster bombers, lvl 3 artillery, cannon mechs (for URC).. Basically anything with a largish AOE works great as mines do not have much in the way of hitpoints and will usually go up fast. You can also use scout units to locate the edges of the minefield.. (they are cheap and make good fodder)
EE is not about micro, yes you can micro in EE and it can sometimes make the difference but the game does not focus on micro. Unlike BA, or AA, or XTA where certain units are much more effective for a certain task, or are only used in certain exact situations where it is important to micro them, in EE this is not the case. EE is about macro strategy and force composition. It is key that you set up a force build order from your factory and leave it on repeat as well as assigning the factories mustering points. Why is this so, because where I want you to focus is on moving and "microing" your groups of units. From this end it is not critical that you be able to easily identify them, in fact you shouldnt have to. You should know from setting up the group build order what units will be in that group, now granted you might not have all of them in there but still you should have a damn good idea of what would be in there. But what about arty and stealth and such which are not something you want in a main force group.. well folks they gave us factory waypoints for more than shits and giggles. If you need a clump of stealth set a different muster point and alter you build to pump out a clump of stealth units, once you have enough switch it back, same goes for arty. As far as the other groups go you should be including rocket, plasma/cannon, anti air, and radar, as well as flame/cannon/laser all the time. Where the micro comes in is in the numbers of each unit you set up to be built, more close in build more flame/laser, more arc aoe build more rocket. Again though this is done in the build menu not on the battlefield. Even veteran players will tell you that if you have to stop and fiddle with your units in EE your already in trouble. You should know what units you have because you should know what you ordered built.. Its that simple.. I hope that explains it some..
Now 2 other points..
1. Ivory hit the nail on the head, always back up lvl 3 units they are rubbish unsupported, and the lvl 3 URC air attack is more for controlling the air space around your territory than for trying to take out fighters orbiting over your enemies base, Sams would be better suited for that, or lvl 2 air attack units which are meant to be in heavier fire situations.
2. For minefields, Id say lvl 1 artillery, lvl 1 rocket units, lvl 2 rocket units, lvl 3 rocket units, cluster bombers, lvl 3 artillery, cannon mechs (for URC).. Basically anything with a largish AOE works great as mines do not have much in the way of hitpoints and will usually go up fast. You can also use scout units to locate the edges of the minefield.. (they are cheap and make good fodder)
- Guessmyname
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 21:07
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- MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: 21 Sep 2004, 08:25
- Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
- Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
@saktothFanger wrote:Trademark, I dont know if you have ever made a 3do model, but texturing them is a GIANT pain in the ass. The faces are arranged sequentially according to when they were created on the model, and when you texture them in 3do builder there is NO way to select a specific face, instead you have to scroll through every face till you find that one (they are usually in a very confused order as well). Then I have to change that texture, save and move on to the next model. This is EXTREMELY TEDIOUS and something I am not readily inclined to do at this point in time. Now it appears that the intent I had with EE was not understood by some people so I will outline it below.
Reading, FTW...
Forb. I was not saying 'Change the textures, its easy isnt it?'.
I was saying 'If you use upspring, changing the textures is easy'.
Note the lack of a question mark. I wasnt even suggesting he SHOULD change the textures, just saying that with upsring its not hard (See, im a good boy, i dont make suggestions anymore).
Ive just started doing it for my own mod- Other than a few bad texture errors, its been very easy to change textures.
I dont know what Fang is using to texture his models, or if there is some reason why he cant use upspring...
I was saying 'If you use upspring, changing the textures is easy'.
Note the lack of a question mark. I wasnt even suggesting he SHOULD change the textures, just saying that with upsring its not hard (See, im a good boy, i dont make suggestions anymore).
Ive just started doing it for my own mod- Other than a few bad texture errors, its been very easy to change textures.
I dont know what Fang is using to texture his models, or if there is some reason why he cant use upspring...
I've had lots of compatibility issues with 3DO builder and upspring when using custom textures. Models textured in upspring had missing textures in builder, even though I included the same textures (down converted to 8 bit).
Anyway if upspring had a function to assign a texture to a whole piece or browse through the faces as it's possible in 3DO builder then it'd be the superior 3DO editor, IMO.
Anyway if upspring had a function to assign a texture to a whole piece or browse through the faces as it's possible in 3DO builder then it'd be the superior 3DO editor, IMO.