Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !! - Page 56

Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

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tombom
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Post by tombom » 03 Feb 2007, 11:51

Saktoth wrote:Except the Croc, which is liquid pwn (But nobody has discovered this yet so its OK).
I should probably use them more actually. I seem to remember they have a firing arc as well which would make them stupidly awesome, although I'm probably remembering wrong.

The liche got worse when it's reload time got increased from 4 to 20 in 2.2 due to some whining by drone_fragger, reverse that.

There are some really nasty spring bugs to do with land transports.

I just checked the Croc's stats - yes they fire over things and they have a higher DPS than Reapers for half the buildtime and 2/3 the metal cost. Same AOE. Same range with faster tracking and stuff and quite a bit faster. They can also go over the same hills as kbots and are amphibious. I think something probably needs to be changed about them. The "if they were overpowered everyone would use them" argument is kind of bad because a lot of people never look at units past their descriptions or through copying pros.
Last edited by tombom on 03 Feb 2007, 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D » 03 Feb 2007, 12:03

My thoughts

Ground/Sea based transports =

If they had a Very short range Jamming field to stealth itself and units that it carries, that would be awesome. A small Speed boost could be in order as well.
Only big problem with using those transports is how easy it is to COMMANDER Snatch with them ; If set to only transport friendly commanders, a greater speed boost would prove usefull and possibly even balanced.

Arm Triton =
Needs to be averaged for damages and cost, so that it is closer to the Croc if not better, Core has 2 Amphib tanks, Croc (should be a lighter tank), and the Poison Arrow which is freaking awesome.

MetGenerators =
They just take up too much space, are far too fragile, and chain reacting, its really not worth the benefit to have more than a few because of their super weak armor and explosive tendencies.

ARM Liche Atom bomber =
Costs could be lowered a bit, why not?
If the Liche could be made to function like a regular bomber, and Not attack like a fighter, and give it a high speed with gradual acceleration. Might be a new nice twist on that unit.

Flash/Gator = Will they ever be balanced? tune in after the next 5 releases and watch ppl still piss n moan about it :roll:

CORE Gimp =
Actually a damn fine unit, but very very suseptible to torpedo/depthcharge/Support boat attacks, I always thought its Micro Torpedo could use a small buff.(pelicans on the other hand can avoid half of the water dangers just by their speed)

ARM Pelican =
Could use a bit more armor, already been stated that they're not very good at all for their costs, IMO armor or a slight weapon boost would do wonders.

ARM Zippers = Meh, dunno. If they match Flash Tank speed now, maybe boost up zipper speed a notch more.
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richw
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Post by richw » 03 Feb 2007, 12:57

What do people think of floating nano towers? (or built underwater, that could be useful)
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Machiosabre
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Post by Machiosabre » 03 Feb 2007, 12:59

Metal Generators. Moho Metal Makers and a fusion (Or advanced solars, which are only 7% less effecient than a fusion, who knew?) are about 60% more effecient on a cost analysis. However, metal generators are cheaper (So you get rewards faster). A lot of the cost of the MG is its E , but it takes no E to run- so in the long term, they might be better? Yet nobody builds them. Do you think this is just because people dont realise?
actually if you convert the Ecost of the metalgen to metal, building an advanced solar+ metal maker is cheaper, and faster.
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hunterw
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Post by hunterw » 03 Feb 2007, 13:04

richw wrote:What do people think of floating nano towers? (or built underwater, that could be useful)
floating sure, submerged nay.

i'd want lots of other units before then though.


torpedo/aa amphib
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Lippy
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Post by Lippy » 03 Feb 2007, 13:59

Pelican: I agree with Mr D, that a HP boost( to 850 maybe?), and a slight DPS boost (to 100?) would definitely help, EDIT: but I think that increasing their turn-rate is most important, as they're supposed to be raiding units; but they just turn too damn slowly!

Arm Zippers: IMO they need a cost decrease, because at the moment, most of the alternatives are just more cost effective (flash, gator, ak, pewee)

Metal Generators: I think people just don't like them, because they're not sure how efficient they are and they need a lot more space and micro to build. I personally build a few of these before going to fusions/MM but I think a slight boost in HP will help (ATM they have 200 health, while a standard solar has 306; but also gets a armor bonus when closed)

Amphibious: IMO all amphib need a rebalance; If you take into account the fact that they have kbot slope tolerance, and they can go underwater the core amphib tanks are just simply better than their land-only equivalents. The Triton sucks compared to the core amphib.

Liche Atomic bomber; I would say give it flares or more HP, because at the moment, they get pwnd by lvl1 anti-air towers and hardly ever get a chance for a second run OR increase it's costs greatly and make it a proper atomic bomber: i.e. uber damage, uber AOE (obviously not as powerful as a full blown missile)

As for the core equivalent: the crow, I think it would be balanced, had it not been for LRMT, as just over 4 shots from one, pwns a crow with costs 4758/68088. Maybe reduce damage from LRMT?
Last edited by Lippy on 03 Feb 2007, 15:18, edited 3 times in total.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 03 Feb 2007, 14:10

has anyone ever considered nerfing the flash and gator TOGETHER, in respect to other units, instead of respect to eachother?
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Mars
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Post by Mars » 03 Feb 2007, 14:11

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:has anyone ever considered nerfing the flash and gator TOGETHER, in respect to other units, instead of respect to eachother?
It´s a whole new way of thinking :lol:
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac » 03 Feb 2007, 14:16

Gator and flash are holy, they must not be changed.

/end
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Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth » 03 Feb 2007, 15:22

Amphibious: IMO all amphib need a rebalance; If you take into account the fact that they have kbot slope tolerance, and they can go underwater the core amphib tanks are just simply better than their land-only equivalents. The Triton sucks compared to the core amphib.
Start using them on comet. When you start beating everyone, we can nerf them. Theory must meet application, im afraid. As for Core amphibs being better- yeah they are, esp the croc, this has been mentioned a lot and needs phix.
As for the core equivalent: the crow, I think it would be balanced, had it not been for LRMT, as just over 4 shots from one, pwns a crow with costs 4758/68088. Maybe reduce damage from LRMT?
The LRMT has a DPS of 93.33. Thats less than a pack0. 3 LRMT's already cost more than a krow. Worst, the effect of an LRMT is almost totally destroyed by just a few scouts flying in front. His LRMT's will shoot down the scouts and you can merrily blow up his base while they reload.

The Krow isnt perfect, balance wise. Its 12x the cost of the core gunship, 7.2x the HP, 4x the DPS. Still, it takes such a punishing, and has gunship movement (Meaning its easier to micro around AA) which makes it more useful than the liche. It could perhaps still do with a slight cost lowering, but not by much.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt » 03 Feb 2007, 16:08

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:has anyone ever considered nerfing the flash and gator TOGETHER, in respect to other units, instead of respect to eachother?
The people who are suggesting major nerfs to flashgator have not really thought through the potential consequences of that (chiefly making defenses more powerful than they already are). Flashgator aren't really that hard to kill, even en-mase, and you can do it without more flashgator. There are probably some people who would use the nerfstick until flashgator are worthless, just because they've been pwned so many times by flashgator.
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Machiosabre
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Post by Machiosabre » 03 Feb 2007, 16:26

LordMatt wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:has anyone ever considered nerfing the flash and gator TOGETHER, in respect to other units, instead of respect to eachother?
The people who are suggesting major nerfs to flashgator have not really thought through the potential consequences of that (chiefly making defenses more powerful than they already are). Flashgator aren't really that hard to kill, even en-mase, and you can do it without more flashgator. There are probably some people who would use the nerfstick until flashgator are worthless, just because they've been pwned so many times by flashgator.
well you could say that, or you could come up with like arguments or stats or something instead of just saying things about the people making suggestions :lol: :lol: :lol:
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BigO
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Post by BigO » 03 Feb 2007, 18:09

Have some suggestions for the BA community.
Seaplane platform
I am all for the idea of adding the Seaplane platform to the hover con├óÔé¼Ôäós build menu. Believe this will add a T2 option to those that go hovers. It will also allow someone the possibility of retaking the water with hovers and seaplane. Send in the hovers to take out aa and Archers on the sea, then send in the Seaplanes. I do want to make it clear that I in no way believe that hovers should be able to assault a naval force but should be able to survive long enough to do adequate damage to aa for an air assault. If any thing I├óÔé¼Ôäód like to see ship do extra damage to hovers. Maybe the cruiser, it is an under used support unit.
Also is there any reason why the torpedo bomber should not be added to the seaplane Platform.
Another suggestion I have for the Seaplane platform, if we wish to make it a T2.5 Factory, is move the Liche, stiletto, or blade for Arm and Krow and/or the old Carpet Bomber for Core to the Seaplane platform and gives them the float or submerge flag. Come to think of it the Carpet bomber would make a good seaplane. Their bombs├óÔé¼Ôäó aoe could be devastating to subs.

Dragon Teeth
About the DT issue I think that adding the reclaim option back to the minelayer would be an adequate solution. But please don├óÔé¼Ôäót add the assist, it would just turn it into a fast assist repair truck(FART).

Rez units/subs
For the Rez units/subs, I don├óÔé¼Ôäót think they need to have their cost and health buffed. Just increase the worktime and remove the assist flag. Think the only reason that they were nurfed was because people were abusing their high worktime and using them as farks.

Decoy reactor
I would also like to address some useless or under used units. The Arm Decoy reactor is hardly built. It would be nice if the building could be used for E/M storage, maybe equal to a T1 metal + T1 energy storage. We could then actually give it an energy storage explosion, or even better would be a fake nuke explosion.

Metal Generators
Also the metal ├óÔé¼┼ôgenerators├óÔé¼┬Ø are a total waste of time and effort it is much more efficient and quicker to build an adv solar and a MM than to build a generator. It would be nice if it worked out to be on par with the Reactor MMM combination or maybe just more efficient by time and resources than the adv. solar mm combo. And yes I did the math:
It works out to be around 377Me 10825T for 1 adv solar and 1MM while it├óÔé¼Ôäós actually 490Me 12190T for generators (Me=m+e/60). This does not even figure in the extra 15e the adv solar have after only using 60 for mm. I believe I use core for numbers. I would think that if we decreased the cost to 367Me(210m 9420e) 10500t we might get less people building wind farms and more people build T2 generator farms. And it├óÔé¼Ôäós fun to watch those things explode. --- I figured I might as well figure out the Reactor MMM cost for 1 metal tick. I used MMM/12 :: Reactor/22 to get the 1m :: 50e metal conversion. So a 12th of a MMM( 56Me 2604T ) + a 22nd of a Reactor(228Me 3428T) = 284Me 6032T. Therefore the cost of 1 tick of metal at T2 with the standard Reactor-MMM combo for Core is 284Me 6032T.
So for the ├óÔé¼┼ôgenerators├óÔé¼┬Ø to be a relevant building they need to fall between t1 mm and t2 MMM.
Adv solar-mm combo 377Me 10825T
Generators ----- suggest ---- 367Me(210m 9420e) 10300t
Reactor-Mmm combo 284Me 6032T

Intrusion Countermeasure System
The next virtually useless unit is the Seismic building. It is not practical at all. There is no way to counter snipers with it. The range of a sniper is 950 the range of the Seismic, if I am reading the info correct, is 896. The attack of the sniper is 2500 against, get this, 2500 health of the building. I also believe Snipers are a little OP tbh. IMO they can keep their DPS just decrease their attack and increase firing rate. That would give defenders more time to react and more opportunities to see snipers. Anyways back to Seismic, the short range of this building requires that we build it at the front line, which just makes it risky to build. It would be nice if this building would give seismic abilities to all radar stations or just simple give it a range almost as great as the Core├óÔé¼Ôäós cruise missile. If we keep the range close to the range of a jamming tower, as it is now, then it might be better to rethink the size and cost of the building and make it more similar to the radar jammer.

Juno
I also have an interesting idea for the Juno. What if it would also destroy nano towers. It might make the expensive cost worth the building. It is not targetable and doesn├óÔé¼Ôäót do any direct damage, but would defiantly add a strategic value to the building, since nano towers are so uber now. The speed metalers would hate it hehe.
Another idea I had for the Juno would be to have it do EMP damage to the cloaked units. That might stop these sniper spammers. Forcing people to put some meat in front of snipers like a balanced mod should have.

Commando
I have a great idea for the commando unit, well at least I think so now. Give the commando back his cloak, take away the stun gun, and make him a transport unit similar to the atlas. Therefore the commando could sneak up on any enemy unit, T1 transportable, and grab it. If I can recall a unit in transport is immediately immobilized. The big trick would be to have the unit be able to capture the unit it grabbed. Not sure if that is possible in spring. If not I guess we would have to give the commando a pointblank stun weapon that would have to be able to fire while capturing like the commanders laser. Another issue is unlike the atlas the grabbed\loaded unit should not be destroyed if the commando dies, just let go. If this is not possible the unit would not be a good idea because it would be two OP. The cloak reveal range need to be worked out so that it not possible to walk right up but close enough to make a dash for the unit before it get a chance to run or react. It would be so fun to watch someone chasing after the commandos carrying away their commander. But again it would have to be possible to recover grabbed unit.

For the people complaining about the T1 spamming, I say bring back the Core├óÔé¼Ôäós Flamethrower tower. That was a great spam killer.

I got some more suggestions but wow this is getting long.
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TradeMark
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Post by TradeMark » 03 Feb 2007, 18:27

Yeah those metal generator should cost less...

What if we put it explode even stronger, but reduce the cost? :D

Then nobody would want to build them, but they would still be useful at some times...
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt » 03 Feb 2007, 18:30

BigO wrote:But please don├óÔé¼Ôäót add the assist, it would just turn it into a fast assist repair truck(FART).
Noes I want to spam FARTs.
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BigO
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Post by BigO » 03 Feb 2007, 18:54

TradeMark wrote:What if we put it explode even stronger, but reduce the cost? :D
Yeah i know the explosion and weak hp of the Generators are an issue, but explosions are good. Let's tempt people into building them so we can watch the fireworks. :D

Oh yeah someone mention that E/M storage is under used. Isn├óÔé¼Ôäót that mostly b/c Caydr gave all eco building higher E/M storage so that our storage grew with our eco. We might want to reduce that a little. Get the noobs to feed us for a bit.
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TradeMark
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Post by TradeMark » 03 Feb 2007, 19:19

Well, metal storages aint under used, you dont much get metal storage from units.

Energy storages should be more used yeah, maybe increase its storage to 8k?
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NOiZE
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Post by NOiZE » 04 Feb 2007, 11:33

Split fox´smutator from this thread, so the discussion can be kept seperate.
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tombom
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Post by tombom » 04 Feb 2007, 12:31

There was some naval changes included in a recentish AA version that was done by Warlord Zrinj or something that were pretty good that would be nice to include, I can't find them in the AA changelog at this moment though.
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richw
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Post by richw » 04 Feb 2007, 16:05

I think sharks are a little OP (i think), was playing a game, 3 cruisers vs 5 sharks + 10 hovers tanks, the sharks killed the cruisers very quickly with little help from the hovers.

Fire rate seems a little high on sharks not sure of the damage.
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