Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !! - Page 62

Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

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manored
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Post by manored » 15 Feb 2007, 01:35

And Krogoths are way too much overpowered. They cost only 2x more than a
Bantha but are a lot stronger than 2x Banthas. I also think Banthas should be able to crush things like the Krog does.
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BDCoolio
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Post by BDCoolio » 15 Feb 2007, 02:06

While people may think the Krog is OP, considering it can't be transported anymore means you need to really think about whether it will actually be useful to you or not depending on how far it needs to travel.

This can also lead to the strategic decision of whether or not to risk building a T3 fac closer to the front lines so they don't have to travel as far.

As for the speed, larger objects tend to move slower relative to their size because of scaling issues. Take, for example, the cockroach - it can run at the equivalent of 200mph if it were human size, but obviously no animal that large can actually move that fast.

Also, having sides that don't have units that are all carbon-copies of each other doesn't mean they're inherently unbalanced - it's actually desirable for variety's sake. The costs simply need to be in-line with their capabilities. Therefore, the Bantha really doesn't need to be a Krogoth clone, complete with crushing ability, to be a balanced unit.

Clearly though, the balance of the other T3 units needs re-evaluation.
But then, you could make that statement about practically anything.
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Uberleechen
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Post by Uberleechen » 15 Feb 2007, 02:12

BDCoolio wrote: As for the speed, larger objects tend to move slower relative to their size because of scaling issues. Take, for example, the cockroach - it can run at the equivalent of 200mph if it were human size, but obviously no animal that large can actually move that fast.
Hell no. You just got the logic totally wrong there. It's absolute speed, not size-relative.

The cockroach can run at 200 mph if it were human size, but in reality it moves slower. A deer, on the other hand, per its size is much slower. But in terms of absolute speed, it is much faster.

The flea, according to this logic, should be slower than larger units. The fastest units in the game should therefore be the largest. (Or at least, some of the largest.)
---
Personally, I like the Krogoth not to be transportable, but the Juggernaut just has to be, as it's so slow that it's essentially useless otherwise. (Well, I'm actually fine with Juggernauts being non-transportable, just not at their current price. Halve it and they'd make acceptable defense-only units.)
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jackalope
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Post by jackalope » 15 Feb 2007, 05:23

BDCoolio wrote:While people may think the Krog is OP, considering it can't be transported anymore means you need to really think about whether it will actually be useful to you or not depending on how far it needs to travel.

This can also lead to the strategic decision of whether or not to risk building a T3 fac closer to the front lines so they don't have to travel as far.

As for the speed, larger objects tend to move slower relative to their size because of scaling issues. Take, for example, the cockroach - it can run at the equivalent of 200mph if it were human size, but obviously no animal that large can actually move that fast.

Also, having sides that don't have units that are all carbon-copies of each other doesn't mean they're inherently unbalanced - it's actually desirable for variety's sake. The costs simply need to be in-line with their capabilities. Therefore, the Bantha really doesn't need to be a Krogoth clone, complete with crushing ability, to be a balanced unit.

Clearly though, the balance of the other T3 units needs re-evaluation.
But then, you could make that statement about practically anything.
not to be offensive, but I'm pretty sure your post doesn't really add anything. you've basically said:

1. we should consider the physics of how real animals move when assigning speed to units

I think that's a pretty bad idea tbh

and

2. balancing should have variety, but there should be balance in costs, and some things need balanced.

which is also not adding a lot.
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pintle
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Post by pintle » 15 Feb 2007, 05:49

i know i know i suck at ba...

but maybe t1 gunships deserve a little love? they are just so frustratingly bad atm
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D » 15 Feb 2007, 06:15

They're support units, not base rapers.

When are you people going to learn?

Gunships = battle field support (best useage)

Bombers = Base attack and specific Fixed target destruction

Transports = Surprise Unit drop attack against lightly defended areas, or fast reinforcement.

Fighters = Defence against the above 3.

p.s.
Krogoth is always going to be unbalanced, who cares.
(nothing will ever happen to fix that, since the ppl making this mod rarely even use T2 units, this mod is for them, not the community ^^)

p.s.s. Stop playing SpeedMetal ffs!
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jackalope
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Post by jackalope » 15 Feb 2007, 06:43

MR.D wrote:p.s.
Krogoth is always going to be unbalanced, who cares.
(nothing will ever happen to fix that, since the ppl making this mod rarely even use T2 units, this mod is for them, not the community ^^)
yeah whatever. I'm not even part of the team making it and I know that's BS.
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REVENGE
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Post by REVENGE » 15 Feb 2007, 08:58

Just noticed, but decoy comms use old Caydr styled laser fx which gives them away. I don't know if people have mentioned this before, but I'm too lazy to check.
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LBPB
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Post by LBPB » 15 Feb 2007, 10:41

Just a tought I had when playing last night.

I don't know if its intended this way or even if its possible to change this. But why Dragon Teeths dont get a ghosted building type when they are out of LOS ?

I would prefere to see them in ghosted building mode too...
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Strategia
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Post by Strategia » 15 Feb 2007, 10:50

DTs are features, not buildings.
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D » 15 Feb 2007, 13:53

Wouldn't it cause netlag if DT were classified as buildings though?

As features, they are about the least resource hogging way they can be.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 15 Feb 2007, 16:21

I dont think a unit that takes that long and that much metal to make is OP by being slightly more effective for its cost that normal units, as if your opponent manages to complete one then you have totally failed to attack him or use aircraft to bomb the gantry. the kind of games where krogs start appearing are the kind that everyone hopes will end soon because sitting behind endless lines of defences is dull as hell.
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pintle
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Post by pintle » 15 Feb 2007, 16:45

MR.D wrote:They're support units, not base rapers.

When are you people going to learn?

Gunships = battle field support (best useage)

Bombers = Base attack and specific Fixed target destruction

Transports = Surprise Unit drop attack against lightly defended areas, or fast reinforcement.

Fighters = Defence against the above 3.

p.s.
Krogoth is always going to be unbalanced, who cares.
(nothing will ever happen to fix that, since the ppl making this mod rarely even use T2 units, this mod is for them, not the community ^^)

p.s.s. Stop playing SpeedMetal ffs!
thereby implying that t1 air has 0 anti unit, so anything that outranges base defence will comepletely annihilate you, thus making air start impossible...

which was kinda my point
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D » 15 Feb 2007, 23:36

Air start has always been since day 1 of OTA, a bad choice for the first factory.

Unless you plan on stealing a enemy commander, or transporting to a forward position quickly to delay the enemy while your teamates build an army to support you, you will lose precious time and spend all of your resources faster with less gain than your enemy.

On a 1v1 basis, Air starts are not only risky, but dumb and pointless.
Your enemy will controll with Strength using land units, and easily crush you while you struggle to maintain an economy.

Thats the way Air has always been, and IMO the way it should stay.

LVL-1 air has always been best suited to recon and support, and used with even a light ground force of Kbots can be devastating to the enemy, "After you have built some Ground presence".

LVL-2 Air on the other hand is where you can start doing some damage, but you will never live to make LVL-2 air against an oponent using Vehicles or Kbots as his 1st Plant against you in a 1v1.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt » 16 Feb 2007, 01:13

Nub wrote:Air start has always been since day 1 of OTA, a bad choice for the first factory.

Unless you plan on stealing a enemy commander, or transporting to a forward position quickly to delay the enemy while your teamates build an army to support you, you will lose precious time and spend all of your resources faster with less gain than your enemy.

On a 1v1 basis, Air starts are not only risky, but dumb and pointless.
Your enemy will controll with Strength using land units, and easily crush you while you struggle to maintain an economy.

Thats the way Air has always been, and IMO the way it should stay.

LVL-1 air has always been best suited to recon and support, and used with even a light ground force of Kbots can be devastating to the enemy, "After you have built some Ground presence".

LVL-2 Air on the other hand is where you can start doing some damage, but you will never live to make LVL-2 air against an oponent using Vehicles or Kbots as his 1st Plant against you in a 1v1.
Air starts were used by all the pro's on the appropriate maps in OTA. I even go air first on some maps in 1v1 to rush out a bomber before reclaiming it to go something else. I have also seen air first successfully used on a land map like painted desert against ground.
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pintle
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Post by pintle » 16 Feb 2007, 01:24

also you could very easily assasinate a com with an avenger rush in ota
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Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth » 16 Feb 2007, 03:26

The real problem with air is the buildtime, energy cost and lack of construction. Air units take 2-3x times as long to build as land units with comparable cost. A lot of that cost is also energy- again around 2-3x as much as land units.

This means that you need 2-3x as much assisting, and 2-3x as much energy production. Yet air cons have half the construction speed of vechs and kbots, and cost more. Unless you have another fac to deal with economic expansion, you are seriously gimped. So, prettymuch no matter how you buff banshees or other air units, air is only going to ever be a support fac until the economic side is addressed. Of course, whether or not we want it to be viable as a first fac is another matter.
thereby implying that t1 air has 0 anti unit, so anything that outranges base defence will comepletely annihilate you, thus making air start impossible...
He said they arent base rapers- not that they arent anti-unit. Their primary advantage is that they cant be hurt if he doesnt bring mobile AA (Say, if he flash/rocko spams you). They can attack with impunity. Of course, as soon as he brings a few AA kbots or starts to spam missile trucks you're toast.

There is a problem with the banshee though. It is wildly inaccurate. It has the same sprayangle as a Peewee or Flash, but due to its angle (Up in the sky) and range (Double) this translates to a much, much worse accuracy- especially considering it will not close range, but sit at its maximum range at all times (Due to its gunship movement).

This, ironically, makes it better against buildings than units (Esp small, fast ones like flash/gator). Which is stupid.

Id also suggest that fighters have a bit of their nerf knocked off. They are now utterly useless against land- they shouldnt be useless, just not very good. Tech1 air (At least) needs a precision anti-ground weapon, esp core which has no gunship.
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Uberleechen
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Post by Uberleechen » 16 Feb 2007, 04:23

Personally, since I'm an OTA convert, I'm feeling a bit of the physics are wrong with airbalance.

Of course, it will be quite different, seeing as how this isn't an OTA-derivative, but rather an UberHack derivative. AA is different, at least partially because it's balanced to Comms-build-MTs and MTs don't shoot at ground, so no MT forests.

For example, in OTA, you had Missile Towers for anti-bomber and anti-fighter defence. They did their job very well. However, due to gunship movement, they were utterly useless against gunships.

Flak towers on the other hand, were godly against gunships, but barely hit bombers and pretty much always missed fighters.

As it currently stands, flak towers are good against pretty much everything. I'd like to see flak towers miss a fair bit more for non-gunships, and have other AA miss gunships more.


Banshees really don't seem to be so great. In using them, I have no clue because I never use them. They just seem to do too little damage for their cost. Defending against them, I usually have hit T2 and one or two flak vehicles/cannons will easily destroy hordes. Before T2, my standard AA defenses tend to not have any problems, as Banshees die so easily. I'm not sure...perhaps they could do with a hp boost?
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DemO
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Post by DemO » 16 Feb 2007, 04:27

+1 to everything Saktoth just said.

Although I'll add I dont think t1 air should be a viable first lab either for the majority of situations (very VERY rarely it can be worth a shot but its still always a big risk) and it should be that way in my opinion (and I would imagine most others too)

I really support the de-nerf of fighters (a little bit) - they are utterly useless against ground as Saktoth just said.

I've always been a player that loves air and uses it in almost every game as a 2nd or 3rd lab (or perhaps 2nd and 3rd!), but with the current nerfed state of fighters its even harder to use them as support units.

Basically it's mainly been the case that after an initial one or two attacks with T1 or T2 air you need to revert almost solely to bombers for strategic attacks on structures, (because its so easy to set up solid anti air/flak quickly) which truly makes air an assist lab instead of a lab to PUSH with.

This limits air to a few uses:

1. Bombing runs on strategic locations
2. Bomb anti nuke then nuke straight after
3. Scout with fink/radar plane to assist LOS for other units and gain information about enemy.
4. Fighters to guard off enemy air

In many ways T1 air infact has more uses than T2 air does. With T1 air you have Transport ships for air drops which can be made quickly and cheaply, if you're core you have bladewings (which have a great effect early on in a game) and bombers tend to be more successful cost for cost because the enemy either doesnt know you have air or hasnt set up enough anti air yet.

This doesn't tie in with the general way of things in TA: where Tech 2 units/labs have more cost effective uses than the T1 lab of the same kind.

T2 gunships especially (with the exception of blade flak resistant gunships - which are way more expensive than brawlers/rapiers anyway) have a VERY short useful time. You'll find T2 gunships can only be used for a very limited time frame successfully before any decent enemy will get solid anti air up. Whether or not we want it like this is another question.

Personally I'd like to see mobile flak and T2 anti air kbots to be nerfed so gunships can be used out in the field to fight off incoming attacks from enemy units. Currently no number of gunships is worth the investment as soon as the enemy has a couple of mobile flak to guard his units.

So T2 air cannot be relied on to defend with in any shape or form currently, and personally my idea of a gunship is something that can fight it out with other units, not get completely owned. Static flak I dont have an issue with, thats fine, but I hate it that 20 gunships will die to 2 mobile flakkers if you try and use them against enemy units with anti air support.
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Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth » 16 Feb 2007, 05:35

Personally I'd like to see mobile flak and T2 anti air kbots to be nerfed so gunships can be used out in the field to fight off incoming attacks from enemy units. Currently no number of gunships is worth the investment as soon as the enemy has a couple of mobile flak to guard his units.
This is a major problem ATM actually. A lot of mobile anti-air is actually better than static anti-air. Totally crazy. The mobile flakker is prettymuch exactly the same as the static flakker (30% less damage is the only real difference), but its half the price. Which makes it, just on damage, 40% better (2x as good on everything else).

The skeeter/searcher is another example- it is about as good as a defender tower, but is highly mobile and has a laser.

Most other mobile AA is at least comparable to static AA.

IMO, mobile AA should be as much as 50% worse than static AA.

Edit: (Id go through and balance it all myself, if i actually thought it was ever going to make it into BA rather than me just wasting my time).
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