Andreask wrote:PLEASE dont get too excited about the shields before NI is finished.
Of course all shields would only reflect the weapons of the opposing factions.
GD = Deflects Plasma and Energy
URC = Deflects Cannon and Energy
NI = Deflects Cannon and Plasma
Good for the storyline and realism, but not gameplay. =P
It's rare to see a GD vs URC game...
Exactly, and that needs to change.
That can only change by making the factions way more specialazied or by leveling them until they are the same, like ARM and CORE.
Well, i am for the specialisation, but thats just me.
If you only have these two classes the following would be cool:
Deflection:
GD = Energy is defelcted good, Kinetic bad
URC = Kinetic Good, Energy Bad
NI = Both moderate
Btw, if you made a unit that has shields worth 5 energy per tik to run, but didnt produce 5 energy per tik, it would drain the power plants, right?
That would be ueber, as energy is so much of a non-issue right now.
btw: i see quite some GD vs URC games, dunno why that wouldnt be.
Fanger wrote:The shield if Implemented WILL ONLY BLOCK ENERGY WEAPONS!!!!
im not making kinetic shields.. the armor of the unit deflects kinetic weaponry..
If you say so.
If the factions really have to use the same shield technology, i would go with option 1 of having the lvl 2s have shields over the lvl1s giving more incentive to go lvl2.
I just thought it would be funny to differentiate it a bit more, no need for panic, i am not in charge here.
btw: i can read your mind! BOO! i knew you wouldnt like my ideas111!!!!
I need some input on balancing NI they are to awesome atm..
BTW: it appears drone fragger is attempting to bastardize my mod behind my back without asking me... Id like if no one would download it until I can get this taken care of..
Fanger wrote:BTW: it appears drone fragger is attempting to bastardize my mod behind my back without asking me... Id like if no one would download it until I can get this taken care of..
Which is retarded on his part because fang has not completed the mod.. drones version will be easily outdated.
he posted some time ago about how ni was only 5% complete. Fang is talking about level 1 right now. They were a bit overpowered what he is currently testing is the base of NI so he can branch out from there. It is easier to balance a handful of units early as opposed to later in development.
To be more specific, NI currently has:
*all lvl 1 ground units (balance is still an issue)
*basic buildtree with factory, resourcing (both on land and water), and turrets
(though only the floating anti-air is complete, sea-wise)
*lvl 2 factory and one lvl 2 unit (lightning hover)
atm we need to balance it more so that units are gonna get used more. right now a certain unit ... how can i put this... has been crowned "E&E's Flash!!"
j5mello wrote:To be more specific, NI currently has:
*all lvl 1 ground units (balance is still an issue)
*basic buildtree with factory, resourcing (both on land and water), and turrets
(though only the floating anti-air is complete, sea-wise)
*lvl 2 factory and one lvl 2 unit (lightning hover)
atm we need to balance it more so that units are gonna get used more. right now a certain unit ... how can i put this... has been crowned "E&E's Flash!!"
I think it's their speed and range. The lightning hovers cost less than plasma bots, but have higher build time. Lightning hovers get seriously hammered by plasma bots in a line battle. Maybe make their mexes produce less metal than the other sides, so they're forced to expand...
Economic balance and unit balance go hand-in-hand.
If you have any unit that is faster, not more expensive, and as hard hitting with even a well enough armour as any other unit, this unit will be superior.
You see, you will win the game whenever you can inflict the greatest amount of losses on the enemy in the shortest amount of time. Speed is of the essence.
This means, if a unit is faster than other units, it needs to be weaker, so the slower units have an advantage in a head-on fight, yet they have the disadvantage in needing to know where the fast unit will be in advance, because they react slow.
Because of this, in EE, armed scout aircraft, armed hovercraft, and similar units are the BEST units in the game. They can get anywhere fastest, enabeling you to out-maneuver your enemy, making you win.
FAST units always make you win!
I cant stress that enough! That is where the power of the Flash finds it origin. Its the mere speed, coupled with a decent fighting ability.
If you can attack before the defender can react, you win.
Fast air units are even worse, scince they are the extreme and you even need a specific counter, which reduces your other fightig abilities on the econ side.
In short: Slow units are sitting ducks compared to fast units !
If NI is suppoesed to be the fastest, there are different options to balance their flash-syndrom without making them unrecognizeable:
- All fast units have low weapon range, low damage, but fast attack rate,
making for micro-intensive play.
- If there is a unit that is fast and has a great range also, it needs to have really low attack rate. Also, it should be killed in one shot by its counter.
- There should be a calculation econ-wise that makes for a even distribution of units at a certain minute mark.
For example:
If NI has 4 fast attack hovers at 3 minutes, GD should have 2 tanks, and URC 3 bots, all of which cost EXACTLY the same amount of ressources.
It then comes down to scouting, micro and luck, to determine who is the victor.
So, the reasoning of adjusting the mex output is not wrong, but i think its not the optimal approach, as it will vary depending on the map anyway.
All you can do is have relative econs between the 3 factions, and then see how many units each could theoretically have during an average game at a certain point.
Bottom line:
The faster the unit, the weaker it must be, not by the margin of which it is faster but exponentially so. If its 50% faster, it must be a one shot kill. If its 30% faster, it needs to survive two hits and so on.
The faster the unit, the lower the range must be, if its 50% faster, reduce range by 50% compared to the slower unit.
The lower the range, the higher the damage output must be, but over time and not as one attack, so 50% less range mean 50% faster RoF.
But if you have a unit with 50% less range, 50% more speed, 50% more ROF, and which is a one shot kill to its counter, it needs a 100% less econ consume, so that for every one counter, you have two of these fast units, making you able to attack from two directions, stressing your micro, but enabeling you to win.
Instead of balancing single units, there needs to be a fixed relation, that is meaningful, ie: not a diffence of 10 HP or 10 seconds workertime, which is practically useless.
All games i have ever played had such a relation as their foundation. Without it, you get caught up in endless balance iteration which never cease to enervate the players, as one unit will always domiante.
I said this before, and it applies to both, units and econ.
Its not a far-out or radical approach to gameplay, but the only viable one, as all other considerations are not integral but mere scratching on the surface.
Now that i think about it, what really would be needed is a algebraic equasion, factoring in all major variables of one unit, extracted from the FBI, then you setup a little program to compare two of these equasions, et voila you could instantly see how one units fares against another whenever you change a parameter.
You could of course also factor in the terrain variables, like range increase on hills or speed decrease on climbs and so on.
Well, as i said before, the Wiki states that
GD = Staying power
URC = versatility
NI = speed
Sadly, the gameplay doesnt reflect this, thats why i stress so much that you should re-design the inter-factional differences from the top down by taking the above mentioned approch of relative attributes.
Dont view attributes/units/econs isolated, but relate them.
Hurray for one of the most well structured and thought out posts in the mod forum. =D
The only problem with lowering the attack range of NI and giving them lower health is that at some point GD/URC will be attacking with a serious force and NI will not be able to stop them with their own mobile units. Yes, they could run past and destroy the opponents base, but they're still gonna lose. =P
So, what? Severe damage reduction for NI but the same range/health?
Andreask wrote:
Well, as i said before, the Wiki states that
GD = Staying power
URC = versatility
NI = speed
Sadly, the gameplay doesnt reflect this, thats why i stress so much that you should re-design the inter-factional differences from the top down by taking the above mentioned approch of relative attributes.
I disagree, btw in the new version GD and urc unit cost/buildtime etc are rebalanced. It is very good.
This:
GD = Staying power
URC = versatility
NI = speed
Is simply an easy way to say it without 50 pages of explaing the differences.
what the fuck makes you think 2x speed == 2x firepower == 2x health or whatever? Counters and terrain alone send your little theory to space, and even so it is flawed at every point. should a melee ranged unit (range 20) have 100x the firepower of an arty unit (2000 range) for the same other stats, killing any unit in the game in less than a second?
didnt think so...
Its not that easy to balance a mod.
Apologies for the rude-ish post if that offended you.
The faster the unit, the lower the range must be, if its 50% faster, reduce range by 50% compared to the slower unit.
The lower the range, the higher the damage output must be, but over time and not as one attack, so 50% less range mean 50% faster RoF.
But if you have a unit with 50% less range, 50% more speed, 50% more ROF, and which is a one shot kill to its counter, it needs a 100% less econ consume, so that for every one counter, you have two of these fast units, making you able to attack from two directions, stressing your micro, but enabeling you to win.
krogothe wrote:Apologies for the rude-ish post if that offended you.
The faster the unit, the lower the range must be, if its 50% faster, reduce range by 50% compared to the slower unit.
The lower the range, the higher the damage output must be, but over time and not as one attack, so 50% less range mean 50% faster RoF.
But if you have a unit with 50% less range, 50% more speed, 50% more ROF, and which is a one shot kill to its counter, it needs a 100% less econ consume, so that for every one counter, you have two of these fast units, making you able to attack from two directions, stressing your micro, but enabeling you to win.
^^ am i missing some hidden variables here?
I think i did not formulate that clearly enough, sry.
50% more speed = 50% less range
50% more RateOfFire = 25% less damage per attack (didnt clearify that)
But there will always be at least 2 of these units for every one of the unit that counters it, although the counter kills it in a few shots.
That is EXACTLY what happened to the flash in AA, only that it took months to figure that out, because AA too has no detailed gameplay concept.
Of course this does NOT apply to artillery, as i stated above.
While with AA ppl are patient and keep playing it despite the ongoing, sometimes aimless, balancing, EE doesnt seem to have the luxury of being the god-father of all mods, which can keep all its players despite glaring deficiencies at times.
EE has to be perfect for ppl to like it, most wont put up with more unfinished mods, so the only way to get players is to deliver a smooth and new experience.
I am currently trying to figure out how to speed up the balancing to reach this more polished state sooner, because i like that Fang creates on the technical level so much, and EE suffers from too few players, so as practical beta-testing is limited, a theoretical approach is needed.
EDIT: i dont use absolute numbers because RELATIVES is the ONLY way to balance things in a changing environment, such as the variying maps and player skill.
Last edited by Andreask on 07 Jun 2006, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.
