*sighs* that is a PROBLEM with your mod. All other mods are designed to start at 1k because that is the standard setting.Optimus Prime wrote: To the speed of this mod: The mod is only slow at start, so why not set the start metal at 5k or so? Thats a nice TA feature and should work for you who like it fast. I bet you never tested it with more than 1k metal - perhaps this is exactly the change you are asking for (two klicks btw if you have a good eye).
Final Frontier 1.18 (Website and first FF-map released)
Moderator: Moderators
Never mind that he's also suggested playing at 2x or 3x speed because of the absurd buildtimes...smoth wrote:*sighs* that is a PROBLEM with your mod. All other mods are designed to start at 1k because that is the standard setting.
Bigger numbers != better.
As for comparing things to AA units, read my post. I didn't - I merely used that as an analogy to what I was proposing. In fact, your specific analogy demonstrates that you did not even begin to understand what I was suggesting.
However, it's quite obvious that you aren't interested in fixing FF. You're only really interested in complaining about people playing wrong and how unfair it is that AA, XTA, EE, and even Gundam Annihilation are successful (to some degree or another) and FF isn't because people don't like the gameplay.
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Guessmyname
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
perhaps you shoukd first analyse things instead of just repeating things from other ppl.Never mind that he's also suggested playing at 2x or 3x speed because of the absurd buildtimes...
Extra for you i extracted aa 2.0 and analysed some buildtimes and workertimes.
example1: bulldog (lvl 2)
Buildtime: 17228 metalcost: 844 ->BT/mc = 20.4
example2: stumpy (lvl 1)
Buildtime: 2904 metalcost: 234 ->BT/mc = 12.4
example3: krogoth (lvl3)
Buildtime: 404350 metalcost: 48277 ->BT/mc = 8.4
Workertimes of a lvl2 vehicleplant: 200
now for some FF stuff:
example1: heretic (lvl2)
Buildtime: 7500 metalcost: 2676 ->BT/mc = 2.8
example2: ironangel (lvl1)
Buildtime: 1900 metalcost: 304 ->BT/mc = 6.25
example3: piledriver (lvl3)
Buildtime: 152000 metalcost: 51570 ->BT/mc = 2.9
buildtime of a lvl2 shipyard: 110
-> so let all BT be multiplied by 20/11 and you still have Buildtimes smaller than in for example AA. I m sure i could take xta or any other mod and would get smaller or nearly equal buildtimes. Its just that ppl dont have enough metal or try to build the fatest stuff.
Also FF has the strongest nanotowers to throw your metal away.
i can if critique is fundamented on facts and not like you see above on some thoughts ppl get because of their subjective feeling or repeating things from other ppl. And thats exactly the point i hear from too many persons. I bet that most ppl who are discussing here didnt even played or at least didnt played the mod very often.methinks Optimus cannae take constructive critisms very well
I know that min3 played it often, but i also know that he loves rushgames and i personally dont like them. Thats more a question of taste like a question of musik is.
Last edited by Optimus Prime on 20 Jun 2006, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
And why's that? Oh yes, because your MT/BT is absolutely massive. So unless you're playing on a map specially designed with an absurd amount of metal, you wind up with major nanostall, which slows down your building...Optimus Prime wrote:Its just that ppl dont have enough metal or try to build the fatest stuff.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
FF needs special maps anyway or do you wanna play over a forest with spaceships? But thats not the point - most ppl are just noobs who dont know how to build a good eco but these ppl wouldnt build a good one in aa too. I just played a game with someone who played FF some times and i wondered that he must have had an eco twice as good as mine. He had a titan and of cource smaller stuff too before i even could try to build a lvl 4 yard.
That shows me that it is possible to build enough stuff in a normal time.
Actually the maps for ff differ too much in the metaloutput.
Some (the skyboxed ones) give about half the metal of the other two maps and i m comparing to the last ones. If i would for example double the metaloutput of the mexes, than the other maps would be played like speedmetal maps - you dont want that.
Edit: perhaps only increasing the lvl 1 and 2 mexes metaloutput would solve the slowness at start, but i dont know how exactly that would influence the gameplay.
That shows me that it is possible to build enough stuff in a normal time.
Actually the maps for ff differ too much in the metaloutput.
Some (the skyboxed ones) give about half the metal of the other two maps and i m comparing to the last ones. If i would for example double the metaloutput of the mexes, than the other maps would be played like speedmetal maps - you dont want that.
Edit: perhaps only increasing the lvl 1 and 2 mexes metaloutput would solve the slowness at start, but i dont know how exactly that would influence the gameplay.
hahaha1. these suggestions you made, arent very usefull or exact. "Removing tech 3" - this cant be a real suggestion.
haha
you can't even read.
REMOVE THE T3 ECONOMY.
T3 units should be fine now that they cost you m/tick and you cannot get a uber economy of doom.
no you bleeding idiot. i explicitly stated this was to MAKE EXPANDING MORE IMPORTANTMaking poketfusions more expensive would make the game even slower not faster.
never SUGGESTED removing tech 3 ffs. And stop hiding >.<2. my AA arguments were just examples for a counterargument why removing tech 3 - not more
yeah there are LOADS of strats. The T3 units ASAP with a small amount of support. umm...the other T3 units with a small amount of support. and um.. the OTHER T3 units with a small amount of support.4. even if you dont think that there arent enough strategies, there are more than you think. Its just logical that the higher the tech level, the mroe units you can build and the more strategies are available.
Sweet variety ;O
yes. because expanding and unit mixing mean fuck all if you don't get T3 asap and i don't play like that.
5. i think you dont wanna play FF because me and xcrist have beaten you in the last 2 games. Wink
T3 should not be all that. It should be important mid game and the MASSIVE ships should be important late game.
You shouldn't need to tech so fast you should be able to battle it out with other units!
wow you listened to one suggestion in a hundred. what do you want a medal...6. why did you think i decreased the commdamage against ODS? Because this was a serious good suggestion from you. So dont say that i never listen to ppl or i have to call you a lier.
STOP HIDING AND FACE IT YOUR MOD NEEDS ADRESSING.in Homeworld...
no shit. and comparisons i made to AA? and attempts i have made to make this mod like AA? stop being paranoid and STOP HIDING BEHIND OTHER MODS
9. i respect your effort helping this mod, but you cant compare units with aa units what most ppl do. A battleship is not a bulldog, a titan not a krogoth and a fighter not a peewee.
STOP. HIDING. BEHIND. OTHER. MODS. FF does have unique gameplay. uniquely CRAP.10. what will you do if supcom has beed released? Suicide? Or spam Chris Taylor with mailbombs until he will make the maps 1/10 the size, the units cheaper and weaker. I dont think so because it is a NEW game which will be played in a different way.
FF is played rare at the moment, but thats not of the "imbalanceness" or the gamespeed but more the point that so few ppl even tried it. You are argumenting with imbalanceness, but i dont see a single imbalanced unit. I can win with nearly every strategy or unit and i try to play different in most games (only i dont like rushing but that doesnt mean that its not possible at all - i tried it successfully).
not against a equally skilled opponent.only i dont like rushing but that doesnt mean that its not possible at all - i tried it successfully
Is AA balanced to 5k metal? no so you hide behind something else...its the MAPS! ...I suggest you to play FF with an increased aount of metal at start and if you still think that its too slow after some weeks of playing, we can discuss some changes more in detail, but atm i think that the speed is just to slow at the start (for me even the start is fast enough) and this can be fixed easily by increasing the startmetal. Another factor is the map: you play deepspace, but on this map, the metal is very rare in comparison to surrounded.
STOP HIDING. INCREASING THE METAL affects the gameplay. it means you tech even FASTER. it means that t1 units are used almost 100% in a support role. it makes the game crappy and boring.
You don't have the all pwning T3 mex. You dont have the T3 units. So you still need to techedit: i forgot to say that you dont need to reach tech 3 for the eco: in tech 2 you have the best energy source (poketfusions) and the mohometalmaker which are still used in tech 3.
STOP HIDING BEHIND OTHER MODS
perhaps you shoukd first analyse things instead of just repeating things from other ppl.
Extra for you i extracted aa 2.0 and analysed some buildtimes and workertimes.
example1: bulldog (lvl 2)
Buildtime: 17228 metalcost: 844 ->BT/mc = 20.4
example2: stumpy (lvl 1)
Buildtime: 2904 metalcost: 234 ->BT/mc = 12.4
example3: krogoth (lvl3)
Buildtime: 404350 metalcost: 48277 ->BT/mc = 8.4
Workertimes of a lvl2 vehicleplant: 200
now for some FF stuff:
example1: heretic (lvl2)
Buildtime: 7500 metalcost: 2676 ->BT/mc = 2.8
example2: ironangel (lvl1)
Buildtime: 1900 metalcost: 304 ->BT/mc = 6.25
example3: piledriver (lvl3)
Buildtime: 152000 metalcost: 51570 ->BT/mc = 2.9
buildtime of a lvl2 shipyard: 110
Oh jesus...Edit: perhaps only increasing the lvl 1 and 2 mexes metaloutput would solve the slowness at start, but i dont know how exactly that would influence the gameplay.
Seriously.. actually run the numbers.. yeah the bulldog takes a bit longer to build unassisted but it uses so much less metal per tic to build its not funny.. were talking 9.8 metal for a bulldog for sec of buildtime compared to 39 metal a sec for that heretic.. this is what slows the down the gameplay in order to produce at normal speed you need a whopping 40+ metal just for that factory.. thats crazy..
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
lol min3 ^^ you should take a break and drink some tea.
What you call hiding is just argumenting because YOU are the one who is hiding behind other mods. You want to make the mod faster - why?! Because you are familiar with that from other mods.
You behave like these persons who run out of arguments and so they begin to cry and at the end they attack the other side because they see that they will lose on the argumentation level. Stay serious and cool or i cant take you serious anymore. But i guess i m hiding behind arguments now.
What exactly do you wanna hear from me now? That i... make all units cheaper? Remake the maps so you get more metal from them? Make the lvl 1 and 2 units much stronger so that no one needs to reach lvl 3 (or better delete them so i can save some space)? Poketfusions more expensive (i still dont see a big advantage in this point)? Hide me behind some firewall?
I wanted to put the small destroyer to lvl 2, but you cried and said no. This would be a good lvl 2 attackship to be able to attack even at lvl 2 - perhaps this time i shouldnt have heard at you.
What you call hiding is just argumenting because YOU are the one who is hiding behind other mods. You want to make the mod faster - why?! Because you are familiar with that from other mods.
yes right it was against you -.- Remember the last 2 games me with xcrist against you and someone else. I attacked you and your ally while xcrist was teching and killed you in the lategame with broadsides and other stuff...Quote:
only i dont like rushing but that doesnt mean that its not possible at all - i tried it successfully
not against a equally skilled opponent.
sorry, but you should clear your mind. I dont have to hide... this was a suggestion FOR YOU who like it fast. For you it seems everything is hiding o.O even if i would change all like you want you would say " you are hiding behind these changes".Is AA balanced to 5k metal? no so you hide behind something else...its the MAPS! ...
this was and is everytime a goal of this mod, to make all units used in game. I hate games where you can win with just one or two types of units.You don't have the all pwning T3 mex. You dont have the T3 units. So you still need to tech
there is a detailed changelog where you can read all changes and than you can go around in the lobby and ask the ppl who helped me in the past developing this mod. (Kovin and Isli for example, but a lot more)wow you listened to one suggestion in a hundred. what do you want a medal...
You behave like these persons who run out of arguments and so they begin to cry and at the end they attack the other side because they see that they will lose on the argumentation level. Stay serious and cool or i cant take you serious anymore. But i guess i m hiding behind arguments now.
What exactly do you wanna hear from me now? That i... make all units cheaper? Remake the maps so you get more metal from them? Make the lvl 1 and 2 units much stronger so that no one needs to reach lvl 3 (or better delete them so i can save some space)? Poketfusions more expensive (i still dont see a big advantage in this point)? Hide me behind some firewall?
I wanted to put the small destroyer to lvl 2, but you cried and said no. This would be a good lvl 2 attackship to be able to attack even at lvl 2 - perhaps this time i shouldnt have heard at you.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
yes thats totally right, but on Surrounded for example you get +100 metal after 10 minutes while (sorry i have to hide myself again) you would get in AA perhaps 25 or so.Fanger wrote:Seriously.. actually run the numbers.. yeah the bulldog takes a bit longer to build unassisted but it uses so much less metal per tic to build its not funny.. were talking 9.8 metal for a bulldog for sec of buildtime compared to 39 metal a sec for that heretic.. this is what slows the down the gameplay in order to produce at normal speed you need a whopping 40+ metal just for that factory.. thats crazy..
We should clerify on which maps we are playing FF - perhaps this is the reason why we all are discussing in a circle.
can you please write it a bit more for stupids? I dont get what you wanna say sorry.and by lvl3 i meant ships like the planetkiller, did i miss some uber buff to them or were you just being oh-so-arrogant-ill-fight-the-whole-playerbase again just because i assumed since the ships came out of a lvl2 plant they were lvl2?
^^What you call hiding is just argumenting because YOU are the one who is hiding behind other mods. You want to make the mod better- why?! Because you want interesting dynamic gameplay? because you and many others think FF is crap.
i don't want it faster. i want it more dynamic. no change i suggested makes FF 'faster' it just makes it more interesting (more T1 / 2 battles with T3 being more of a late game thing as you don't get a uber economy of doom as well as uber ships of doom_
you really are going to use that game as a basic for your arguments? i played crap and had a useless ally. if you are basing your mod on that its no wonder what its become
yes right it was against you -.- Remember the last 2 games me with xcrist against you and someone else. I attacked you and your ally while xcrist was teching and killed you in the lategame with broadsides and other stuff...
I DONT WANT IT FASTFOR YOU who like it fast
I WANT IT DYNAMIC
AND INTERESTING
there is a clear difference!!!!!
hmm wait a sec did i say to remove any UNITS? except the titan i did NOTthis was and is everytime a goal of this mod, to make all units used in game. I hate games where you can win with just one or two types of units.
i said REMOVE the CRAPPY UNUSED buildings and the T3 mexes
i even said to keep the T3 con ship for the buildpower and defenses
Code: Select all
What exactly do you wanna hear from me now? That i... make all units cheaper? Remake the maps so you get more metal from them? Make the lvl 1 and 2 units much stronger so that no one needs to reach lvl 3 (or better delete them so i can save some space)? Poketfusions more expensive (i still dont see a big advantage in this point)? Hide me behind some firewall? i want T1 and T2 units to REMAIN THE SAME
i want pocket fusions 5-10% more expensive to make EXPANDING slightly more important
i want away wiht the useless units and the T3 mexes and the titan
do i really have to go through them for the third time? i posted them. u said we didnt give suggestions, i posted them again, u completly misunderstood them.
3rd time lucky? >.<
That was and still is a retarded idea. me and a few others at the time thought this and at this point you still listened to me.I wanted to put the small destroyer to lvl 2, but you cried and said no. This would be a good lvl 2 attackship to be able to attack even at lvl 2 - perhaps this time i shouldnt have heard at you.
Ok, I don't have much to say about the economy, that has been smashed enough....
I do have an ideathough. Why does higher tech level ONLY mean bigger, badder ships? It seems Homeworld played a big influence on this mod. Why not have all classes of ships in all tech levels? In other words, have basic fighters, lightly armed frigates, etc for lvl 1 ships, while on the other end of the spectrum you have lvl 3 superfighters and battleships? Just because a ship is small doesn't mean its basic. I know this would mean quite a bit of tweaking on the ships, but it would make the game "more dynamic"....think I've heard that word enough in this topic.
I do have an ideathough. Why does higher tech level ONLY mean bigger, badder ships? It seems Homeworld played a big influence on this mod. Why not have all classes of ships in all tech levels? In other words, have basic fighters, lightly armed frigates, etc for lvl 1 ships, while on the other end of the spectrum you have lvl 3 superfighters and battleships? Just because a ship is small doesn't mean its basic. I know this would mean quite a bit of tweaking on the ships, but it would make the game "more dynamic"....think I've heard that word enough in this topic.
well some of the smaller ships are pretty nifty, the T3 fighters pack a punch and the ODS of all levels can be useful in certain situations, lets not forget the cloakable attack frigates either (both units from stealth lab however, maybe some sort of advanced fighter of frigate in the T3 lab would be interesting. ask opty)
btw theres a ceasefire. this thread is safe...for the moment
btw theres a ceasefire. this thread is safe...for the moment
I'm happy to update it for 1.17 and fix any problems that people find.Egarwaen wrote:No-one played it, so Nemo got sick of updating it.Guessmyname wrote:What happened to Low Fat FF anyway?
Like I said, I think the whole "higher TLs = bigger ships" thing is fundamentally flawed in the first place.
But, as you say, nobody played it, and so no problems were found, and so I went on my merry way =)
As for you, min3...
...having never tried it >_>Min3mat wrote:no fat FF is imbalanced crap.
However, I have no idea how the balance of Low Fat FF really is, since its based on the balance of FF proper. I just made it faster. So, any flaws in FF balance will show up in greater numbers and far sooner. I think so, at least. However, if people give it a shot, I'm happy to start tweaking it.