Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released! - Page 2

Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

All game release threads should be posted here

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Apollo
Posts: 168
Joined: 15 Feb 2009, 09:22

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Apollo »

i think the TTL modles look pretty and make the core and arm models look dull in compareson. nice if the core and arm models get redone imo. havnt rly played it enough to comment on anything balance wise. 1 thing tho you can dgun another com at max dgun range and your com will survie its com explosion aslong as its at full health lulz.
User avatar
lurker
Posts: 3842
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 06:13

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by lurker »

Can you post your current equation, if it's been changed since that older Tired spreadsheet?
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Apollo wrote:i think the TTL modles look pretty and make the core and arm models look dull in compareson. nice if the core and arm models get redone imo. havnt rly played it enough to comment on anything balance wise. 1 thing tho you can dgun another com at max dgun range and your com will survie its com explosion aslong as its at full health lulz.
Yea the com thing was something done my an earlier modder than I had forgot to change. Fixed next v.
Can you post your current equation, if it's been changed since that older Tired spreadsheet?
Here's the link to the equation I used.

http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... ic+balance

As you can see it includes AoE :wink:
User avatar
lurker
Posts: 3842
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 06:13

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by lurker »

That may be the algorithm, but if you have it in equation form it would be more convenient. Or did you do each unit manually? :|
User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5309
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Jazcash »

Somebody make Unbalanced Annihilation.
Google_Frog
Moderator
Posts: 2464
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 09:24

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Google_Frog »

But it is my firm belief that you will find the balance in SL a lot better than in BA
That wouldn't be hard but have you tried any other games?

There's just so much wrong with balancing like this. Have you tested the units at all? Are there counters or are all units a slight variation of 1 average unit? How does this equation handle units which are faster and have more range than other units?

Things like this:
Of course if a unit has a special attribute like firing very fast or impact knockback I make it cost more.
How much more?
All I am trying to say is that balancing at a college level vs. balancing at an elementary school level just makes more sense to anybody who is not in severe denial.
Thats stupid, how does the level of maths involved change anything?
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Or did you do each unit manually?
:wink:
There's just so much wrong with balancing like this. Have you tested the units at all? Are there counters or are all units a slight variation of 1 average unit? How does this equation handle units which are faster and have more range than other units?
Of course I tested them. And I (and many others) have tested Tired's mod and seen that his equation works very well.
Thats stupid, how does the level of maths involved change anything?
IS that a serious question? Or are you being sarcastic.

What if Einstein and his team of scientists had tried to make the atomic bomb using only guess and check and no mathematical formulas/equations. How long do you think it would have taken then?

I'm sure that when building the atomic bomb, there was a lot of "experimenting" involved, but primarily, mathematical equations were used in order to simplify the process and make it even POSSIBLE to undertake such a huge feat.

So when you ask me, how can complex mathematical equations improve balance better than guesswork, you really aren't thinking much about it.

Wing
User avatar
Beherith
Posts: 5145
Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Beherith »

The main mistake wing makes is: more balanced= better (more fun games)

The level of maths involved makes absolutely no difference if the parameters used in said equation are also just decided by guessing.

When you say "complex mathematical equations" it sounds like your waving an 11 inch peice of wood with a unicorn hair in it.

Btw, I checked, the maths used in this equation are more like middle school level, nowhere near college level.

Edited for clarity
Last edited by Beherith on 23 Mar 2009, 13:51, edited 2 times in total.
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

The main mistake wing makes is: more balanced= better
Lol. I don't even know how to respond to this.

You're right. Less balanced is better. What was I thinking.
User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

you missed the important bit there, let me blow it up a little
The level of maths involved makes absolutely no difference if the parameters used in said equation are also just decided by guessing.
also, all the current mainstream mods were balanced using estimations, but THEN they were submitted to thousands of man hours of testing. the way most mainstream method of balancing unit figures is percentages; the 'random' numbers in BA are mostly a result of somthing being multiplied and divided so much it has absoloutely nothing in common with the original values; ie if somthing has too little health, give it a 10% buff, if it has too much damage nerf its dps by 10%...
enough of this results in a situation where no unit is overwelmingly superior to any of the others and you acheive a kind of balance.

this is admittedly not so much the case in BA because it is run by conservatists who very much like a build order of 5 flash, 1 con, repeat, but thats not to say if they wanted to they couldnt fix it by the old standard of player feedback and incremental changes.
I'm confident that works better than an equation like tireds, which really dosnt factor in SO MANY THINGS. if you are then changing units manually to account for such factors, whats the point of using the formula at all?

I'm not trolling your mod, just saying, declaring you mod mega balanced is fine as long as your willing to have people disect that
Last edited by 1v0ry_k1ng on 23 Mar 2009, 13:58, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Otherside »

Maths balance in an rts with as many variables and the complexity that spring mods have in comparison to other rts's (units dont just have 4-5 stats they have a ton)

Its impossible to balance purely on maths.

Sure basic maths will help and work. But there is no formula that will give you perfect balance and if you think there is your kidding yourself.

To many things need to be factored in to balancing and play testing is needed as much as maths is (or probably more so)

tireds formula cant calculate things like

Turret turnrate's effect on killing some units but not killing others

Damage done in low Rof unit on each other unit in the game (shots needed to kill)

and there are just very basic things (cba to think of more off the top of my head but there are way more advanced little quirks also)

you cant just assign Fixed values and percentages to each attribute to factor cost it just doesnt work. Cause each other value will affect the utility of other stats affecting how much they should cost in reality, aswell as other units in the game.
User avatar
Beherith
Posts: 5145
Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Beherith »

All this talk makes me want to calculate a support vector machine on BA and CA and XTA...
User avatar
Peet
Malcontent
Posts: 4383
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 22:04

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Peet »

Wingflier wrote:You're right. Less balanced is better. What was I thinking.
For starters, he did not state that at all. He stated that balance is not the only defining factor in how "good" a game is.
Generally, in the context of a game, one would define "better" as what appeals to the largest number of players. It is more or less arguable (even by your own mindset, judging by your creation of this mod) that BA is not particularly well-balanced. Might I cite the statistics on player-time in various mods?
Image
Since it is evident that BA is the most played mod, and BA could be called unbalanced, it is pretty obvious that balance is not the primary contributor to a game's success.
User avatar
hoijui
Former Engine Dev
Posts: 4344
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 09:51

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by hoijui »

mm...
what would a perfect balancing algorithm need?

if we take only the part of balancing units relatively to each other, by their properties in UnitDef (which are around 300, lets say 200 are relevant (the others beeing about their graphical representaiton and such)). you would have to balance each unit on all the other units in the game, then you may change one property, and then you have to adjust all other units again, as thier reference (all other units from thier point of view) changed -> you may end this story by defining a minimum change threshold, but perfectly done, it would probably never end (for as much units as BA has eg).

for real prefect balance though, you would also take into account the maps the mod is played on. eg.. calculate the ammount of time each unit needs to get from point A to point B on every map, for every possible point A and B combination.

really perfect it only gets, when you use the scientific method for real (the "guessing"), and simulate every possible game, and somehow adjust values (at the end of all games played, or during these games beeing played), and repeat that so often (playing all possible games), until you reach a state of no change needed.
this would take computationally quite long for a game of the simplicity of ches already, and even there it is only possible with some special rules to prevent undoing and redoing moves indefinatly, which could not even be done for spring, as of course, you can always move back and forwards with a unit eg.

if it were possible, we would end up with a game where an action is as good as every other possible action. This is (only?) possible if no actions are no-actions, or if defining good as beeing every outcome. Which, in terms of a spring mod means, we can either have no units, have all available units unable to do anything, or define good as something independent of winning or loosing.


All this is not evaluated perfectly, here, by me ;-)
The idea was to just make clear that "in the real world", perfect does not exist, as long as you have good defined as something that it makes sense at all to even have it defined in the first place. As eg defining good as beeing every outcome...
you get it.

... not to say that anybody declared anything as perfect, i was just bored.
User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5309
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Jazcash »

It's pretty balanced imo. Ofc not the best balance but there are no obvious OP units.
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Of course it won't be perfectly balanced in first v. ;p

But yea I did test it alot before releasing.
Sure basic maths will help and work. But there is no formula that will give you perfect balance and if you think there is your kidding yourself.
On the contrary. I simply mean to say that having an equation helps. As opposed to just pure guess and check.
User avatar
SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by SirArtturi »

This mod have good potential. So far SA (which this mod is based on I assume?) have been pretty enjoyable gameplay, very similiar to ba (but a bit slower and more tactical)

And adding new effects (from XTA?) and adding a new faction will add even more depth to the game.

With a little improving of textures and models, tweaking balance and units this will become very good mod!
User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5309
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Jazcash »

Seems a lot of similar games to BA are being released, this one was released around the same time as tech wars. Both great Modifications of BA and great additional units but here are a few things to note:

Players would prefer to be able to use their own widgets rather than have the mod maker only allow them to use the ones he has implemented.

Be prepared for criticism and feedback, you need to work on players opinions. Don't make too frequent releases, fix bugs in batches unless there are some major glitches that need to be addressed.

Give players time to adjust, host lots of games and play a range of maps to get players familiar with the new stuff. Don't play one game, take feedback, improve, new release all the time. Do it in batches and steps.

Help explain stuff about the Mod like what's different, what you advise to use, what units do what etc. Each unit should have it's own description in the build menu when you hover your cursor over it.

Try out loads of different other games and mods and see what makes them great and successful, then carry this over to your mod and make similar styles, widgets, etc. Don't copy paste without permission though :P


Unrelated to this, I think there are already loads of games & mods out there better than BA, it's just BA has a the majority of the player base, if we're going to get new stuff played we need to make ourselves less concerned about Atari and their issues and get players playing a range of different mods.

Ultimately I think it's down to players. The more players Spring has, the better. At the moment, it's almost like a picture book with no text. (metaphorically speaking ofc).
Really the only way Spring is advertised is by word of mouth which is slow and not very Dependant. We need to work on other things like cheap advertising loads of popular sites and partnering with similar open-source projects.
User avatar
lurker
Posts: 3842
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 06:13

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by lurker »

hoijui wrote:an action is as good as every other possible action
I would disagree, and say perfect balance is when every unit choice is as good as any other, on average, depending on enemy unit choice, and that this holds across all player skill levels.
User avatar
CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
Posts: 3359
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 21:48

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by CarRepairer »

Wingflier wrote:
The main mistake wing makes is: more balanced= better
Lol. I don't even know how to respond to this.

You're right. Less balanced is better. What was I thinking.
(More Balanced <=/=> Better) <=/=> (Less Balanced <=> Better)
Post Reply

Return to “Game Releases”