Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

[overkill]

Oh Jesus. WHY? dear god. TLL is awesome i am in fact redoing some of the models for the xta TLL pack. but i think SA sucks. not SA in particular anymore, tired's algorithm. Let me elaborate so im not just saying: lol this sucks. Tired's algorithm create stales and boring gameplay, the units just dont have any character, they are all boring things that are supposedly balanced. by character i mean quirks and uniqueness, sure the algorithm takes damage speed and basic crap into account, but it cant make a skirmish tank have arcing missiles and balance it, it cannot make unique and fun to use units. And it DEFINATELY cannot make faction units unique. in SA or SL a rocko is a storm for arm. in ca a rocko and storm have the same general role but are very different and have different pros and cons. ca is more fun than this or SA.

tired's algorithm definitely gets things more balanced than ba or other stuff. better balance != better gameplay, i am not saying worse balance is better. The best balanced mod could play like shit while the worst plays better.

I am not saying LOL SCRAP ALGORITHM BALANCED MODDING. i am saying you cannot possible run an algorithm and get a fun mod. i think you should create or get a better algorithm and use it as a base to eliminate the years if tedious guess and buff/nerf used by most mods. and tweak the units and give them unique traits base on the guideline stats the algorithm has created.

[Pxtl]

Poor variability has nothing to do with the use of a formula and everything to do with oversimplifying the units. Just because a formula is used doesn't mean that you can't vary the units between the factions. If the formula assigns a value to arcing units, you can then compensate the non-arcing version correspondingly, so you get the rocko and storm being "balanced", though being different.

The only thing a formula is intended to prevent you from doing is (1) making a unit that cannot be described by the formula (I doubt the formula could handle something as bizarre as jump-jets) and (2) making a unit that is outright better than its counterpart (like some TA variants where the Arm version of a unit is outright better/worse than the Core version, even though their stats are nearly identical except for cost or armor or something)

Of course, the practicality of creating a formula is best left for the formula thread. But as long as you're willing to try to describe every possible feature in your formula, there's no reason you can't include every zany feature into your mod. CA could be formula-balanced, if you so chose. You wouldn't, because the formula would be a nightmare to create, but you could try and it wouldn't make your units bland.

[imbaczek]

Your formula seems to just be comparing each unit to the others without taking into account a lot of stats and how well they will do vs each other for cost.

Lol are you suggesting an equation that you have to perform over 600 times on every unit to see how well it would do against every other particular unit

actually, this is the only way that will give usable results, but it's still only half of the job.

[Wingflier]

Your formula seems to just be comparing each unit to the others without taking into account a lot of stats and how well they will do vs each other for cost.

Lol are you suggesting an equation that you have to perform over 600 times on every unit to see how well it would do against every other particular unit

actually, this is the only way that will give usable results, but it's still only half of the job.

As I said before, thank you again for your glamorous support of using a mathematical equation vs. guess and check.

Because yes, while I understand you disagree with the particular equation I happen to be using, you also must understand that it performs the task of comparing over 600 units together instantaneously much better than the human mind could without it.

So while we can all see that Tired's equation does not meet your standards, apparently it's a step up from what you consider extremely imbalanced.

Wing

[aegis]

who shall balance the balance?

[Google_Frog]

As I said before, thank you again for your glamorous support of using a mathematical equation vs. guess and check.

Because yes, while I understand you disagree with the particular equation I happen to be using, you also must understand that it performs the task of comparing over 600 units together instantaneously much better than the human mind could without it.

So while we can all see that Tired's equation does not meet your standards, apparently it's a step up from what you consider extremely imbalanced.

Wing

Your formula compares unit stats instead of units as a whole, there is a big difference.

Humans are good at comparing 600 units against each other to create balance, well I am anyway. It's not the strict mathematical method of a formula that would require something tens of times more complex than your formula, instead humans use a mix of experience, simplification, fuzzy logic and simple equations.

[Wingflier]

Your formula compares unit stats instead of units as a whole, there is a big difference.

Isn't a unit just a collection of stats? Couldn't any given unit be broken down into several different statistics?

Humans are good at comparing 600 units against each other to create balance, well I am anyway.

You must really be something then. Whenever you balance a unit you can recall all 600 other unit's metal, energy, build time, dps, range, hp, aoe, speed, line of sight, energy per shot, and role almost simultaneously. Maybe you should go on Ripley's Believe it or Not or some other kind of world record organization because you have an extremely complex and high quality brain there.

All sarcasm aside, you do not factor in all of these statistics, which, as many of you have noted, are but a few of the hundreds which are important, you factor in only what your limited mental capacity can think of at the time. Once again, you are joking yourself if you think you can create an serious unit consistency using this guess and check method.

With Tired's equation, all the things I just mentioned (metal, energy, build time, dps, range, hp, aoe, speed, line of sight, energy per shot, and role), I no longer have to consider when tweaking individual units. I still guess and check sure, but I have a way of simultaneously comparing every unit together, instead of naively thinking that I can calculate 10s of thousands of stats in my brain at once. This is why balancing with an equation is better than pure guess and check.

Wing

[Google_Frog]

oops

[Google_Frog]

Your formula compares unit stats instead of units as a whole, there is a big difference.

Isn't a unit just a collection of stats? Couldn't any given unit be broken down into several different statistics?

Units are greater than the sum of their stats. The stats interact.

Humans are good at comparing 600 units against each other to create balance, well I am anyway.

You must really be something then. Whenever you balance a unit you can recall all 600 other unit's metal, energy, build time, dps, range, hp, aoe, speed, line of sight, energy per shot, and role almost simultaneously. Maybe you should go on Ripley's Believe it or Not or some other kind of world record organization because you have an extremely complex and high quality brain there.

All sarcasm aside, you do not factor in all of these statistics, which, as many of you have noted, are but a few of the hundreds which are important, you factor in only what your limited mental capacity can think of at the time. Once again, you are joking yourself if you think you can create an serious unit consistency using this guess and check method.

Not simultaneously and not all the numbers of every stat. Most of the important stats are taken into account but not all stats are relevant for all units. Stats are lumped into things like firing, maneuverability etc.. each of which make a unit good or bad when combined.

Fine balance isn't about calculating it's stats and comparing them. Very few stats are linear and they influence each other. When balancing you'd don't need to know all the numbers, all you need is a feel for the numbers and to understand what makes a unit good/bad compared to other units.

It depends what you call balancing. Using an initial equation to actually make the units is good as it gets them in the general area of balance. After a unit is created the failings of whatever method used to create a unit become apparent and you've got to tweak all the numbers while thinking of exactly how it's OP/UP and what should be done with it. You can't just pop all units out with an equation and call it balanced, it won't be because it needs the tweaking that formulas have no way of accounting for.

[slogic]

Why builders can't reclaim commanders?

[TheFatController]

Why builders can't reclaim commanders?

Because you can't reclaim.... THE DEAD

Edit: oh wait yes you can, throwback from BA to make it harder to sacrifice your com for metal

[slogic]

Sorry, I meant you can't reclaim metal from an enemy commander in SL mod. That's strange.

Edit: never thought about reclaiming my own comm for metal though :)

[Wingflier]

As far as I know you can reclaim commander corpses for metal...

You mean why can't you reclaim LIVE commanders? I'll leave that up to you too decide.

[slogic]

Yes, i'm talking about live enemy commander. Builder can reclaim any live enemy unit for metal except commander in your mod. This is stupid. Just tested yesterday. Bitwise i liked a new race. Also RAI played it very well for the very frst game so i loose

I'll leave that up to you too decide.

How should i consider this?

PS. Also Guardians refused to shoot at LANDED air forces. Why?

[Otherside]

slogic its easier to self d com and reclaim him

on a side note the games i have had of this mod leads me to this point of criticism i guess its due to the maths balancing.

But none of the units seem to have character they all seem quite dull sure some might be better at some things than others but they have no character at all which makes the game a bit dull.

Which leads to a dull and boring experience in general

[Jazcash]

Load screen reference, will update when I make new load screens.

Load screen 1

[slogic]

slogic its easier to self d com and reclaim him

Uf, I really talked about the situation when i unsuccessfully tried to use my builders to defend against enemy comm in current mod. Haven't you faced it? I guess this situation is rare in real game, but on a small map with AI it occures too often.

[REVENGE]

slogic its easier to self d com and reclaim him

Uf, I really talked about the situation when i unsuccessfully tried to use my builders to defend against enemy comm in current mod. Haven't you faced it? I guess this situation is rare in real game, but on a small map with AI it occures too often.

Sorry, I know what you mean.

Like other people have said, you can't because it was decided by the modmaker(s) that you shouldn't be able to reclaim your Commander for easy metal. That said, the way it is done is by a tag on the unit file, which means that you can't reclaim ANY commanders, regardless of friend or foe.

[REVENGE]

Load screen reference, will update when I make new load screens.

Load screen 1

MUCH better than the current loadscreen.

[slogic]

Load screen reference, will update when I make new load screens.

Load screen 1

MUCH better than the current loadscreen.

I thought it was a joke. "Self destructing" text on the left-top corner. Cum-like font...

That said, the way it is done is by a tag on the unit file, which means that you can't reclaim ANY commanders, regardless of friend or foe.

I did not understand this from the fist post. Mod developer did not state this evidently. If so, i retire.

Another small bugs. Mexes have no select sound (that was an old BA issue). TLL wind makers have a select sound with distortion in final part.