Metropolis Spring

[Anarchid]

Didn't notice the edit part until now

Do you plan on adding the other factions? Or at least resistance/ghorkovs?

Naturally; the fact that only M and T are here now is just a strategic tradeoff - i am giving much more priority to the core features (such as, say making that worldbuilder analog and teaching ai to teleport around and handle its reservoirs) then adding new units/factions; and more priority to making units work than making them look.

I can try to help make some of the units that aren't too complicated.

I will give you two kilokudos for each one

I hope UA goes the way of MechCommander2. A lot of UA's art is easy to get at .

I remember one of those "top secret community projects", and their devs grumbling about the models being inaccessible...

Also, you may be able to recruit people from http://forums.metropolisdawn.com/...

I just posted there before reading the edit-part of your post. We are the overmind. %)

[KDR_11k]

Hm, I think I could use an explanation of how the game is supposed to work. Currently it seems to be about making a few ground cubes to capure sectors, making the powerplants to match them once you have enough sectors and otherwise just spam AA gunships until you can steamroll the enemy.

[GoldStar611]

Hm, I think I could use an explanation of how the game is supposed to work. Currently it seems to be about making a few ground cubes to capure sectors, making the powerplants to match them once you have enough sectors and otherwise just spam AA gunships until you can steamroll the enemy.

That is how the original game play followed, with of course some first person interaction when you take control of a vehicle yourself. Basically it's a you win against everyone or you lose against someone RTS game. Systematically disable the other players/CPU by taking their sectors, destroying their buildings and then their main base (host station). Now if we can get multiple factions on the same side that would be an awesome feature! Taerkastens and Gorkovs vs Resistance and Black Sect vs a super powerfull Myko establishment!!

[Anarchid]

Hm, I think I could use an explanation of how the game is supposed to work. Currently it seems to be about making a few ground cubes to capure sectors, making the powerplants to match them once you have enough sectors and otherwise just spam AA gunships until you can steamroll the enemy.

That is how the original game play followed...

Actually, there was just a lil' bit more depth to that: spamming AA gunships (there's only one type of unit to satisfy this criterion, the brick, and it won't really shoot ground targets like the ostwind that will shoot them from the sky in seconds) - will (should) quickly lead you to doom, since you'll lose the units, and your units are your economy. The basic idea would be to outsmart, outfight, outshoot and outmaneuver your enemies to control more territory to get more units, and only then you can "steamroll them". However, stuff like headshot anti-comm econ-sacrificing risky rush maneuvers had, will have, and to the point of the current limited implementation, do have their weight .

I'll compile a proper "program document" later. For now - the assault becomes urban with 0.13 if you bother to check the new mod options

[KDR_11k]

My economy is three cubes and four powerplants, I would never use bricks for claiming territory, gunships suck at that. Bricks may be vulnerable to ostwinds but burstfire + slow reload = tendency to overkill so running a swarm of them at the enemy com should get enough hits in to kill it before the ground units can kill the swarm. Once the com is dead the enemy has no unit production and it's just a matter of mopping up what's left (if you aren't playing com ends).

BTW, it's kinda confusing that a unit named Ostwind (WW2 flak tank) is labelled an MRLS (long range missile artillery) and serves as antiair...

[Anarchid]

My economy is three cubes and four powerplants

I admit this is not the way it's supposed to be - copying original UA specifics to extent of my memory seems not to be sufficient to achieve proper balance; a major fix is needed. Any suggestions are welcome.

Bricks may be vulnerable to ostwinds but burstfire + slow reload = tendency to overkill so running a swarm of them at the enemy com should get enough hits in to kill it before the ground units can kill the swarm.

Basically,the brick's main role is supposed to be exactly comm wasting, the anti-air to be overtaken by the "air stick" fighter whenever i or someone else bothers to implement it.

Ostwind itself wasn't the typical AA tank of Urban Assault - it did deliver a lot of impulse and damage within its burst, but also suffered from long reload. Having overkill AA, it was also unsettlingly useful against "flakstations" -- the only fortifications UA had.

Also, given the brick's large velocity but slow acceleration and turning, since 0.12 a powerplant just a sector away will let you teleport out of the busting brick-hail to devastate them with your comm weapon. AI still has no idea, tho, neither has it any idea of defense or reservoir control; i already stated it being stupidly minimal and implemented for unit development.

BTW, it's kinda confusing that a unit named Ostwind (WW2 flak tank) is labelled an MRLS (long range missile artillery) and serves as antiair...

We can assume that Taerkastens named their AA tank after the WW2 one despite the fact it uses a different weapons system - it *was* called the same Ostwind in Metropolis Dawn. MLRS actually stands for Multiple Launch Rocket System, basically any kind of burstfire rocket system, starting with the Katyusha which UA:MD/MS Ostwind clearly draws influence from.

However, since i already renamed Myko Bomber to Ring Triad and may rename it later for anything better, and since i already renamed Quadda to Brick, it'd not be out of way to re-imagine the Ostwind as well(and it would lower that improbable chance of mykicrosoft IP interference)

The "Grand High Strategy Plan of Program Document" is still being written.

[KDR_11k]

Doesn't having a powerplant a sector away mean you're wasting income? From what I see the energy is split between all powerplants you have, not just the ones you use with the com and a powerplant that's not near your com is useless, thus wasting energy. Setting up a teleport outpost also wastes energy because to do that you have to move your com away from your powerplants which means no income until you teleport back.

All the famous multi rocket launchers were loaded with artillery missiles, I'm not sure rocket spam even makes sense in antiair.

So the unit selection isn't complete yet?

[manolo_]

nice idea, have to test it. i loved UA :)

[Anarchid]

Doesn't having a powerplant a sector away mean you're wasting income? From what I see the energy is split between all powerplants you have, not just the ones you use with the com and a powerplant that's not near your com is useless, thus wasting energy. Setting up a teleport outpost also wastes energy because to do that you have to move your com away from your powerplants which means no income until you teleport back.

It's not useless, you'll lose some energy but the distance-power dropoff is linear, and at one sector it won't be that much.

All the famous multi rocket launchers were loaded with artillery missiles, I'm not sure rocket spam even makes sense in antiair.

Sure. But then, this is Taerkasten missile launcher. Just like most zeppelins used to be lighter than air... and the Taerkasten interpretation had enough armour to withstand several minutes of Resistance AA flak ^^.

So the unit selection isn't complete yet?

Not by far. Lawl, it've got only two of four factions yet - and i'm still working on the luarules part most of the time

Also, included is the "strategic" part of the Grand High Uber Strategic Program Document.

[KDR_11k]

The problem is that users think an MRLS is an artillery unit.

I meant the unit selection of those two factions because it feels kinda lacking (aliens have only one AA unit)

[Masse]

holy shit it is urban assault... that is something i've wanted to make a remake of for a looooong time :) was one of my favorite games when i was kid... i loved battles between hundreds flying mm... things!

[TheBigPK]

Here, this is the list for both factions ripped from the original game's manual:

The vanilla game really did not have too many units, which imo was a good thing (the Resistance has a ton more than these, and the ghorkov has a bit more, probably because of how the campaign goes).

[KDR_11k]

That's still way more than in the current mod version.

[Anarchid]

The problem is that users think an MRLS is an artillery unit.

Calling their mobile AA for GDI in TS "Hover MLRS" didn't really scare off Westwood, did it?
However, a more proper unit-desc is probably needed, yes.

That's still way more than in the current mod version.

Precisely; i've already mentioned that the amount of units and factions is minimal so as to gameplay might be tested at least at some level.

The reason for posting here so soon (before Everything gets made) is obvious: i'd like to have more manpower than i am, and this is possibly achievable by recruiting people into developing this mod. The reason for posting here so late (so that most of LuaRules are already there and mostly need polishing) is similar - you can't PR without your material.

The advice given in the neighbor topic for "Aero Assault" seems to be of the same mind on the question of balance between planning/release/pr

Back to the bricks: i've tested the "4 cubes, 4 powerplants, 25 brick and off you go!" strategy with different tweakings of unit stats and AI. It seems the adjustments required are minimal - if the AI is allowed to cheat (it can't anticipate the need for air defense, so allowing it to see a brickstrat as it starts is basically a simulation of "what would a human do if they expected the brickstrat"), it will effectively shoot down the bricks before they reach their destination (once again, with several stat tweaks).

The LOS AI also stands a slightly increased chance of surviving a brick hit with urban density>1 because the buildings in 0.13 actually provide radar range as conquered sectors did in vanilla.

Also, the second part of the "GHPD", for the "first-person" level of planning is attached. It basically iterates over which specific models/units need to be made, so - anyone with desire to contribute can pick one, lurk-up a little on the item's looks, and go get some kudos

[Google_Frog]

Interesting idea. You should try some multiplayer testing.

I think territories need to be displayed on the map. To make it unobtrusive only drawn the territory borders and give them the owners teamcolour.

There's also a bug where the triangle gunship refuses to attack ground. It hovers outside it's weapon range.

[Anarchid]

There's also a bug where the triangle gunship refuses to attack ground. It hovers outside it's weapon range.

Now THAT seems to be simply the default behaviour of Spring gunships; this is the very reason that instead of gunship model the mykonian bomber is a plane without ailerons or elevators on it.

I'll try to switch "airstafe" off on prisms too, let's see what happens.

I think territories need to be displayed on the map. To make it unobtrusive only drawn the territory borders and give them the owners teamcolour.

If you enable buildings (see the "urban population density" mod option in 0.13), the buildings will have teamcolored strips on them. As for sector borders, i tried it via Lua and didn't like the results: drawing them to observe the map's curvature turned out too resource-intensive(at least the way i did it, it could be just my algorith was epick phale), and drawing them without observing the terrain is ugly.

As for MP testing, it's a good idea

[imbaczek]

you could draw border posts instead of lines. lines will be ugly, but posts should be ok. maybe even make them features.

[KDR_11k]

The AI can't anticipate the need for AA? I always make AA because air attacks are the only thing that's dangerous to my com and base and obviously I need defenses against that. Also, hell, what else are mykos supposed to do? Attack with ground cubes that can't even hit air? Everything else is air.

[Anarchid]

If your foe is Taerkasten, tanks are more of threat to your comm (though they are twice as slow, and easier to intercept), just 3-4 Eisenhans' will usually suffice against a not-so-healthy host.

And yes, the AI can't anticipate, not just the need for AA - it *can't anticipate*, period. And it has absolutely no idea on defense either. Didn't you read teh "stupid" when i first mentioned it? I didn't lie, see? %)

The entirety of current AI has four paradigms that drive it, and that's all. Any "rushes" that it tries to perform are emergent (and as already mentioned, accidental) effects of enabling it to see the entire map, and that bases and commanders are mainstay of enemies until more units are created. These four paradigms are as follows:

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1) I need maximum power input, and for that i need powerplants. So if i have no powerplants, i will build one, and otherwise build powerplants to match my sectors.
2) I need sectors for my powerplants, so i will send my units to conquer those if i have such things as units.
3) I need units to send to conquer those sectors, so i shall look in my hard-wired (as gadgets can't save their data, it's static) database, see which of my units are better for capture, and make these units.
4) If i see enemies, then every so often, depending on my aggression setting, i will try to kill them. To do so, i'll create units specifically effective against the mainstay of known enemies. If i am Laims(Omniscient), i will check all enemy units, not just ones i see. And if i already have units, i'll send any vacant (i.e not already intercepting or conquering) ones to do my dirty work.

The reason why AI comm usually has about 300 health is also here: it doesn't even know its health depends on its power, or that it can enable/disable specific reservoirs. In fact, it doesn't even know what reservoirs are. ^^

All of this code is inside a file called LuaRules/Gadgets/laims.lua, so anyone with ideas on how to maek the AI smarter should either proceed there, and well, maek it smarter, or just post specific recommendations on how to do stuff.

The database it reads is in LuaRules/Gadgets/config/laims.ini, it's just another Lua file that defines the roles and types of each unit. "capture" and "power" roles are hardwired (in laims.lua), everything else can be tweaked.

Hmm. Perhaps, it'd be possible to somehow luer someone to develop the AI, from the AI section of this board. Yees. *does a Mr.Burns impression.*

you could draw border posts instead of lines. lines will be ugly, but posts should be ok. maybe even make them features.

Hmm, yes, this is a good idea, and won't be hard to add to my worldbuilder. Anyone willing to donate a model?

[TheBigPK]

For the grid on the map, perhaps you could make simple block towers at intersections kind of like posts but have them emit colored beams to corresponding towers or something. Or if there's a way to actually stick squares of color on the map, that'd be awesome; like permanent scarring or something (I don't know lua). More opaque squares on the minimap might help too.