Expand and Exterminate version 0.42 - Page 3

Expand and Exterminate version 0.42

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Fanger
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Re: Copyright Violation Version 0.41

Post by Fanger » 04 Feb 2008, 04:14

I really dont really know how you need to look at the entire grunt mechanical work to explain what you think needs to be done about a lack of patrollables, and too much micromananging.. this is all meta gaming you discuss this with need an X unit that does Y sorta thing, not going through the code and going, well if you change these values to 101.5 from 101.2 and such.. that wouldnt actually be helpful, I was asking for generalized ideas.. not specific game element changes.. those are my peragative anyways Id more than likely NOT use your numbers if you gave em out..
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Argh
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Re: Copyright Violation Version 0.41

Post by Argh » 04 Feb 2008, 04:18

I really dont really know how you need to look at the entire grunt mechanical work to explain what you think needs to be done about a lack of patrollables, and too much micromananging.. this is all meta gaming you discuss this with need an X unit that does Y sorta thing, not going through the code and going, well if you change these values to 101.5 from 101.2 and such.. that wouldnt actually be helpful, I was asking for generalized ideas.. not specific game element changes.. those are my peragative anyways Id more than likely NOT use your numbers if you gave em out..
I wasn't going to give out numbers, I don't know your game well enough to do anything like that. I just wanted to get a handle on where the delays were taking place, and how long, and I was hoping to see whether there was code that could be changed to morph without freezing the characters, because I was thinking that might be a good way to go, as a technical option. As it happens, that's possible, with a small change in the LUA, and some trickery.

The main issue I've had with the Aliens is that they just have to sit around too damn long, due to the way the Morph code works. Take out the part where they're utterly useless, then on big maps, they could morph or clone on the move, be useful when they arrived, and expand their patrols to make up for losses or expand territorial control. No factory with an automated patrol is necessary then, they'd still play like Aliens, only they'd be more workable. Other options are to shorten times or cut costs, but I think both options suck.
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Fanger
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Fanger » 04 Feb 2008, 04:23

alien units that could morph/clone while being functional, mobile, and able to do stuff would be horribly overpowered.. and break the game..

From your long posts you seemed to indicate that the issue stemmed from too much micro on large games, and an inability to properly hold terrain.. Fixing this with mobile clone/morph is over kill...

how about stronger turrets, ability to clone multiple times per unit, reduced costs, different method of handling aircraft cloning to allow for more aircraft strike teams.. I mean you said you played some test games, I assumed you got some sort of a feel from them..?
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aegis
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Re: Copyright Violation Version 0.41

Post by aegis » 04 Feb 2008, 04:28

Argh wrote: The main issue I've had with the Aliens is that they just have to sit around too damn long, due to the way the Morph code works. Take out the part where they're utterly useless, then on big maps, they could morph or clone on the move, be useful when they arrived, and expand their patrols to make up for losses or expand territorial control. No factory with an automated patrol is necessary then, they'd still play like Aliens, only they'd be more workable. Other options are to shorten times or cut costs, but I think both options suck.
ahahahaha

argh, you should seriously play against me. i'll take aliens.
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Argh
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Argh » 04 Feb 2008, 04:38

how about stronger turrets, ability to clone multiple times per unit, reduced costs, different method of handling aircraft cloning to allow for more aircraft strike teams..
Well, here's what tests seem to show, to me:

1. Stronger turrets, unless you have two grades of the Light Turret, mean that a commander could just post turrets in a URC / GD base, if they rushed it, and win on turret spam, I think (on a very small map).

2. Cloning multiple times per unit might be OK, but only if it was an option- 1, 2, 3, imo. Then people could ramp with their econ. But I think it might screw play up too much, because the incentive to just Zerg rush and keep posting the weakest, cheapest would be too high.

3. Reduced costs are probably bad. One-for-one, the Aliens have the best units in the game, with few exceptions. They don't need to get cheaper, imo.

4. Giving aircraft the ability to clone themselves, or some sort of LUA method to give them at least a default patrol path on birth would be a big improvement in reducing micro and allowing the Aliens to defend their expansions while they tech.

Hmm... to do the LUA, one solution would be a LuaRules COB function, passing some data from the builder to the new aircraft and giving it a default patrol pattern you'd use something like this, to give a simple, triangular patrol path. Just invoke this code during Create().

I hereby release the following, into the Public Domain:

Code: Select all

function GivePatrol(u, ud, team)

	local x, y, z = Spring.GetUnitPosition(u)

Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x-250,y,z-250},{"alt"});
Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x+250,y,z-250},{"alt"});
Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x,y,z-500},{"alt"});
end
gadgetHandler:RegisterGlobal("GivePatrol", GivePatrol)
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Neddie
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Neddie » 04 Feb 2008, 05:22

Actually, if anything Argh, Aliens in the hands of a player with all the tricks down would be overpowered, by my estimation. URC would be the weakest of the three due to the specialized nature of Stealth.

Of course, I've only played E&E as I can, so I'm not the best authority on balance there.
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Argh
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Argh » 04 Feb 2008, 05:28

I think it really depends on the size of the map. On smaller maps, I think Aliens are very, very tough. Maybe imba tough. It's when you're trying to defend 20+ Resource Pylons on a huge perimeter that it starts getting really messy.
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Relative
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Relative » 04 Feb 2008, 08:43

I would have to disagree with you on the aliens as well Argh. If anything they they need to be nerfed, particularly against the URC. Although, I do agree with you that there is a problem with transportation due to the nature of cloning and morphing.
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tombom
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by tombom » 04 Feb 2008, 09:28

Argh wrote:I hereby release the following, into the Public Domain:

Code: Select all

function GivePatrol(u, ud, team)

	local x, y, z = Spring.GetUnitPosition(u)

Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x-250,y,z-250},{"alt"});
Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x+250,y,z-250},{"alt"});
Spring.GiveOrderToUnit(u,CMD.INSERT,{-1,CMD.PATROL,CMD.OPT_SHIFT,x,y,z-500},{"alt"});
end
gadgetHandler:RegisterGlobal("GivePatrol", GivePatrol)
This is a joke right?
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KDR_11k
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by KDR_11k » 04 Feb 2008, 10:01

(for public code please make sure it works without AllowUnsafe)

I don't think forcing aliens to stop moving to produce is a big issue, other factions can't move their factories either and if they want to move an army they got to wait for it to be done before moving it too (unless they want to risk losing it unit-by-unit). It's even less severe for aliens because their production gets done in log(n) instead of n. Also Aliens can, if their troop isn't completely annihilated, field reinforcements at a forward location.
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Sleksa
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Sleksa » 04 Feb 2008, 11:37

Argh wrote:
Well, here's what tests seem to show, to me:
Tests are usually worth jack shit in comparison to real game experience and usage.
1. Stronger turrets, unless you have two grades of the Light Turret, mean that a commander could just post turrets in a URC / GD base, if they rushed it, and win on turret spam, I think (on a very small map).
LOLLED the turrets are pretty ok from the few games i played, the gd machineguns can be spammed around to prevent the urc stealth-o-bots from cutting your mexes one by one, and the bigger ones are a OK defence, but saying that only spamming turrets can get you a win is bullshit. Just because day could do it a year ago doesnt mean you can do it now ,except if you mean like 4x4 maps lolz



2. Cloning multiple times per unit might be OK, but only if it was an option- 1, 2, 3, imo. Then people could ramp with their econ. But I think it might screw play up too much, because the incentive to just Zerg rush and keep posting the weakest, cheapest would be too high.
I dont understand what you are trying to say with this sentence fully ~~
3. Reduced costs are probably bad. One-for-one, the Aliens have the best units in the game, with few exceptions. They don't need to get cheaper, imo.
The aliens are a very different group than URC or GD, sure they have the best unit, but they can also be rushed with relative ease, and keeping the right quantity of bots morphing/cloning at all times later on is much harder than just putting up 3 labs and giving each of them a repeat on build order.
also the alien energy costs are pretty high when cloning/morphing, but the metal gained pretty much goes to making E-structures, so it feels like nanoblobs for me.
4. Giving aircraft the ability to clone themselves, or some sort of LUA method to give them at least a default patrol path on birth would be a big improvement in reducing micro and allowing the Aliens to defend their expansions while they tech.
What micro? just drag a line of aircraft and thats it ~_~

Defending expansions is easy too, you dont need no fancy patrol lua's to do it for you, just build a radar, and move a few bots to the expo area, and clone them when you see the enemy coming close



To fang; the urc endgame rocket artillery doesnt seem to generate any kind of a explosion when it hits, which seems a bit odd to me since the muzzle flash is HUEG, is this a bug or a feature?

Also what is the difference between the 2 different cameras the gd/urc scouts can build?

And finally, what is the use of the spike things for aliens, from what i gathered it was supposed to work like caltrops or something, but instead of going through them, a few bots on fight command kept shooting at them for like 10 minutes ~_~
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Pressure Line
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Pressure Line » 04 Feb 2008, 12:30

Sleksa wrote:And finally, what is the use of the spike things for aliens, from what i gathered it was supposed to work like caltrops or something, but instead of going through them, a few bots on fight command kept shooting at them for like 10 minutes ~_~
combination mine/wall

hueg hp, you can destroy them but it takes time. or run right through, they explode and kill yer boiz. or find another way through, time again.

fang explained in more detail further up
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Re: Expand and Exterminate 0.41

Post by Google_Frog » 04 Feb 2008, 12:45

Fanger wrote:hrm... what exactly happened..?
With the alien transports 2 game crashed just as i was unloading about 50 aliens from 10 transports onto an enemy army.

With alien cloning I barely clone my units unless it's cheaper that building (eg. cons). For building an army I prefer spamming scouts to assist a con. Also scouts can be built very early allowing much quicker mex grabbing than other factions.
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Fanger
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Fanger » 04 Feb 2008, 13:27

Sleksa wrote:
To fang; the urc endgame rocket artillery doesnt seem to generate any kind of a explosion when it hits, which seems a bit odd to me since the muzzle flash is HUEG, is this a bug or a feature?

Also what is the difference between the 2 different cameras the gd/urc scouts can build?

And finally, what is the use of the spike things for aliens, from what i gathered it was supposed to work like caltrops or something, but instead of going through them, a few bots on fight command kept shooting at them for like 10 minutes ~_~
Im not sure which endgame artillery you mean, is it the turret mounted one.. that unit is essentially supposed to approximate a bertha if it is in fact the lvl 3 rocket artillery turret.. the muzzle poof of smoke is huge, because missiles even small ones usually have huge muzzle poofs of smoke.. its a graphic feature... Theoretically anyways I can take a look at it..

The 2 kinds of camera, by this I assume you mean the difference between the recon pole, and the perimeter camera.
- The perimeter camera is stealth/cloaked and thus provides line of sight whilst being unseen and thus hopefully not killable, these can be left behind enemy lines to spy etc.. etc..
- The Recon pole is a defensive detection structure it also provides line of sight, but in addition it provides sesimic detection and hence can be used to detect stealth units or units you cant get LOS to from a position. It works best when built a long a perimeter with defences and or on top of hills or behind them to allow it to detect enemy forces especially cloaked units.

The spike/quill pylons are as pressure line stated a visible mine with lots of HP.. it should essentially function as a deterrent...(note Mines in EE do not chain)

As far as the transport, I suppose I will try and have em unload a whole bunch, I am really not sure whats going on there though.. they should not be any different than any of the other air transports in the game..
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Sleksa
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Sleksa » 04 Feb 2008, 13:43

Fanger wrote:
Im not sure which endgame artillery you mean, is it the turret mounted one.. that unit is essentially supposed to approximate a bertha if it is in fact the lvl 3 rocket artillery turret.. the muzzle poof of smoke is huge, because missiles even small ones usually have huge muzzle poofs of smoke.. its a graphic feature... Theoretically anyways I can take a look at it..
The urc long range rocket artillery , built by t3 builder, a static turret.
the muzzle poof of smoke is huge
yes, IMO it would look much better if there would be some kind of a explosion graphic for the missile too when it hits to represent its power, instead of being like a fart in the wind.

The 2 kinds of camera, by this I assume you mean the difference between the recon pole, and the perimeter camera.
- The perimeter camera is stealth/cloaked and thus provides line of sight whilst being unseen and thus hopefully not killable, these can be left behind enemy lines to spy etc.. etc..
- The Recon pole is a defensive detection structure it also provides line of sight, but in addition it provides sesimic detection and hence can be used to detect stealth units or units you cant get LOS to from a position. It works best when built a long a perimeter with defences and or on top of hills or behind them to allow it to detect enemy forces especially cloaked units.
ok so perimeter camera is a "offensive" camera, that gives info on the enemy, and the recon pole is used to spot those F**** urc bots. Thanks
The spike/quill pylons are as pressure line stated a visible mine with lots of HP.. it should essentially function as a deterrent...(note Mines in EE do not chain)
I built a few on the land and a few on the water in the map frozen gauntlet, and the other guy's tanks and ships just stood there shooting at them.

If they are mines, are they supposed to cloack, or is it a "visible" deterrent, to make the enemy known that it will cause dmg to get through a certain area?
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Forboding Angel » 04 Feb 2008, 14:28

Well that the thing about the alien mines... I hate the damn things . TBH the only really good way to kill them is to spam scounts and run em through. Due to the scouts speed, they can generally cause a few close lines to explode before they die.

@ lvl3 turret: You may not be seeing the explosion cause it's out of los? THat happens a lot in evo, cegs get culled when they go out of los... That would explain it looking like a fart in the wind.

Turret spam will get you nowhere. Turrets are essentially the same as if you built a tank/bot/alien that couldn't move. THey are there to slow down your enemy, not to stop him. Now the fortresses can be a serious bitch to take down... however... Did someone say lolzspam?
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Sleksa
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Sleksa » 04 Feb 2008, 14:30

@ lvl3 turret: You may not be seeing the explosion cause it's out of los? THat happens a lot in evo, cegs get culled when they go out of los... That would explain it looking like a fart in the wind.
i had units in the area where it was shooting, so thats not it.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Forboding Angel » 04 Feb 2008, 14:31

:shock:

Fang prolly maed loltypo :P


either that or just... nEEds MOAR!
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Fanger
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Fanger » 04 Feb 2008, 14:54

Essentially the quill mines work by either you opponent doesnt go through em, letting you shoot at him with arty while he goes around/mills about, he goes through em takes damage and you shoot him, or he stops to shoot them.. whereby you shoot him while he shoots them..

Ill consider adding more oomph to the explosion..
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Sleksa
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Re: Expand and Exterminate version 0.41

Post by Sleksa » 04 Feb 2008, 14:58


Ill consider adding more oomph to the explosion..
\o/
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