Balanced Annihilation V5.8

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 01 Oct 2007, 05:37

CA had multiple balancing entities and no executive filtering them.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:05

neddiedrow wrote:CA had multiple balancing entities and no executive filtering them.

:)

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:12

WarC is not a single-minded entity

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:21

Noize is. :D

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:31

If BBs are too effective at killing mobile units as well then why not just give them slower bullets or targetMoveError? There are ways to make a weapon weaker vs. moving targets without compromising their ability to wreck stationary targets.

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 01 Oct 2007, 10:50

KDR_11k wrote:If BBs are too effective at killing mobile units as well then why not just give them slower bullets or targetMoveError? There are ways to make a weapon weaker vs. moving targets without compromising their ability to wreck stationary targets.

They cant be made slower, as then they would not reach their max range- that is until you get weapon-specific gravity, then you can do whatever you want with the speed.

Targetmoveerror would be utterly, utterly awful on something like a Bertha. Remember that the turret must turn to the angle of the move error (its not like accuracy where the projectile is offset by a random amount- the turret actually aims wrong), and that with the long travel time of a bertha shell the overshoot would be horrendous.

Either way you can just attack ground where you know he has his units.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 01 Oct 2007, 11:22

the bertha is meant be be hellish. its the equivalent to someone making a wonder in AOEII; you have to rush to take it out otherwise you get ownt.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 01 Oct 2007, 11:25

Sleksa wrote:WarC is not a single-minded entity

Not the point neddie is making. The problem with CA is that you have 5 or so people all independently allowed to make balance changes without agreeing on the changes first. BA is just changes Noize makes because Noize wants to do something, or changes Noize makes because someone else suggested change and Noize agrees. Fundamentally, when balancing, all changes should be parsed by a single entity ultimately responsible for the solidity of the game. For example, Noize doesn't come up for every idea in BA, but Noize does have to agree with every change or he simply won't make the change.

The problem with CA is one person will make a change, and with no discussion someone else will revert it, and then make another totally different change also with no discussion. There is no continuity, and thus balance will ultimately always fail. What needs to be avoided is developers balancing while on entirely different pages of thought, if a balance change is worth making it's worth convincing who ever is in charge that it's the right change for the right reasons.

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 01 Oct 2007, 11:26

oh ok

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 01 Oct 2007, 13:53

Mr.Frumious wrote: And as for the business of "making it more OTA-like" does that mean wierd crap like super-slow/super-shortranged cans and Zeuses, weak-assed mohos, etc?

No those would be bad changes that would not add strategic options to gameplay.

Also there are much more efficient ways of killing mobile units, however there isn't (and shouldn't) be anything stopping someone from shelling a group of mobile units attacking him with BB.

Foxomaniac · Post by **Foxomaniac** » 01 Oct 2007, 15:12

"Making it moar liek ota!11" is a buzzword in my book.

Mind tricks!

Spiking · Post by **Spiking** » 01 Oct 2007, 16:40

The goliath change is excellent, They are finally kind of usable again, with spotters and support. The BB change can't be that bad since I've yet to see a bertha in a few games, but I support the idea of making them better because they were pretty much terrible before and getting roughly 4 of them was nessicary if you really wanted to do damage.

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 01 Oct 2007, 17:43

Just specced a 2 hour long (1 hour in game time due to lag) DSD game. 11 berthas (All on one team), about as many shields (Mostly on the other), a vulcan (which wasnt firing due to no e) and a buzzsaw (Which verymuch -was- firing).

The Berthas couldnt decide it. Nukes + EMP couldnt decide it. The Buzzsaw couldnt decide it. It took an absurdly massive air spam to end it. The team with no berthas won BTW.

Granted, it begs the question of what the hell the players were doing that the game lasted that long, but I dont know that Berthas are OP if 11 of them all on one team cant end a game.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 01 Oct 2007, 18:40

SwiftSpear wrote:
neddiedrow wrote:CA had multiple balancing entities and no executive filtering them.
:)

It's funny - you, my roommate, Tired and I all said it within a space of fifteen minutes.

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 01 Oct 2007, 18:42

Saktoth wrote:Just specced a 2 hour long (1 hour in game time due to lag) DSD game. 11 berthas (All on one team), about as many shields (Mostly on the other), a vulcan (which wasnt firing due to no e) and a buzzsaw (Which verymuch -was- firing).

The Berthas couldnt decide it. Nukes + EMP couldnt decide it. The Buzzsaw couldnt decide it. It took an absurdly massive air spam to end it. The team with no berthas won BTW.

Granted, it begs the question of what the hell the players were doing that the game lasted that long, but I dont know that Berthas are OP if 11 of them all on one team cant end a game.

Well there's something to tell about this:
1.)
Hey - I had e to fire the vulcan - just not enough to keep it firing instantly but doing nice 3er or 5er waves...

Later on it wasn't firing due to no targets in range because its firing distance is even smaller than the BBs (compare with 3.) )...

2.)
Nukes + EMP pretty much decided the game because thus the enemies north was wasted - the problem was one anti covering mostly the main base was just out of EMP-range. If not the game would have ended then quickly...

3.)
Yeah we had like 11 Berthas and they were no game ender. But that doesn't imply Berthas aren't OP because (as you may know) BBs dont have enough range on DSD to reach the enemies "main hill". If this had been so they would have been a game ender though...

Imo the Bertha change is cool but now you can really see that the shields just are bad. With two or three Berthas you now can take out a shield in - well - in a matter of one minute as you now have enough accuracy to aim at a position where the BB shots will hit the shield with their AoE if not directly. Repairing doesn't help because this is sloooow. So shields need to be a bit better now (ok they had to before too)...

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 01 Oct 2007, 18:54

i just tested BB's on flat map. They are very nice now, very accurate. 3 take shield down in some shots. BUT if u have 2 shields(S1, S2) that are located ~200 distance from each other, they never die even to vulcan. They also make safe ~2 core nuke area begin them. Very usefull.

They must be position right angled on BB's though:

BB

[S1] [S2]
[safezone 2 nukes big]

Now u know.

Satirik · Post by **Satirik** » 04 Oct 2007, 12:52

depth charge launcher are OVER POWERED agains kbots vehic com etc

and i won't play tropical with BA 5.8 again until you balance that

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 04 Oct 2007, 14:18

Satirik, you know that depthcharge launchers cost as much metal as 3 llts, and as much energy as 4, right?

Do you know what 3 llt's does to a commander, or kbots, or tanks? Do you know what 2 llt's does to a commander, kbot, or tank? Thats right. It kills them faster than a deptcharge launcher will.

Sure, the depthcharge launcher has more range, but all you need to do is come at it at such an angle that the land is between yourself and the depthcharge launcher and the depthcharges wont fire, or will plop harmlessly onto the sand. Even if he has his positioned in such a way that you cant do this, just rush up and get onto the sand next to them. The depthcharge launchers are now useless.

Seriously, you should have seen them when they had an AoE (Of what, 64?). Now THAT was op.

Satirik · Post by **Satirik** » 04 Oct 2007, 14:41

but you can't fire in the water and you are slowed ....

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 04 Oct 2007, 17:01

Correction. FLASH cant fire in the water. But they are also invisible. Basically, flash are amphibs on Tropical- thats how you should think of them and thats how you should use them, like amphib stealth tank dealios. Be sneaky, sneak around, sneak into his base.

If he has sonar though and weapons that can hit and detect you underwater, you're kinda stuffed. Obviously. Even then, just get on land- where you can fire and he cant.

Stumpies, leveler, janus, missile trucks all kbots (Perhaps not ak? I think ak might not be able to fire), artillery, etc all fire fine while in the water (But arent ninja-stealthed like flash).

On an unrelated note, after some playing and plenty of speccing, ive come to some conclusions.

Firstly, Juno is actually viable! But its frustrating. So frustrating. Lots of pro points go to gunblob for exploiting a perviously unused, apparently useless unit. We could not make any radar whatsoever due to his one juno. Every time we tried, bang, it would get hit by a juno. Jammers too, and mines (I even tried spreading the mines out over a huge area, doesnt matter, junos AoE is huge too). The range is also virtually infinite, this one juno was right at the back of his base. Whats more he actually juno'ed my juno, which blew up and took out some of my base (lul). We're probably going to be seeing more of this sort of thing, and im not sure its exactly the best for gameplay. Strategically utilized information warfare is good, carpet bombing junos perhaps not so much. Time will tell if it becomes a common strat.

Secondly, BB's. They are very effective. In a lot of ways, this is good. In other ways, it does encourage just sitting back and shelling your enemy into the stone age. I think its worth considering decreasing the cost of shields, so you can afford to get them up a little earlier to pre-empt his berthas from shelling your really improtant stuff, or to get them up a little faster when you have to go 'shit, panic, berthas!'. Other than that and/or in addition to that, id consider upping some of the damage mods on popups. That way, you still have some kind of backbone defensive, even if he is shelling you hard with berthas.

Spring RTS Engine

Balanced Annihilation V5.8