Balanced Annihilation V5.8 - Page 13

Balanced Annihilation V5.8

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Wingflier
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Post by Wingflier »

KingRaptor wrote:
Wingflier wrote:I agree with Machiosabre, T2 Arm bots are FAR inferior to T2 Core kbots, even with their faster speed (overall). The Core has much better cost effectiveness in terms of armor, damage, and range.
I mostly agree, though one should not forget that Arm has the Sharpshooter, which when used intelligently is the best Kbot in the whole game.
My second problem with BA is something that should be obviously unbalanced to everybody. Who's genius idea was it to put the rez bots in level 1 tech? What is the reasoning behind this? They are not needed in that spot. Would you put Cans and Mavericks in level 1 factories? What about invisible spy kbots? Freakers/Farks? Of course not, that's totally absurd. Think about the cost to benefit ratio.
Flavour-wise, yes T1 rezbots suck. Balance-wise? Rezbots take time to get to the frontline (unlike comms/cons which would likely be on-site anyway), die when you sneeze on them, and you may not always get the unit you need.
In one game I completely resurrected an enemy Krogoth in about 5 min for almost nothing.
A) You need E to rez.
B) If the enemy sends a krog in and has no units around to secure the wreck when it dies, it's his own bad judgement.
And the fact that you can rez commanders at any point in the game is a bit lame.
lol @ rezzing comms
bunch 'o nonsense about DT
ROFL
-Flavour-wise, yes T1 rezbots suck. Balance-wise? Rezbots take time to get to the frontline (unlike comms/cons which would likely be on-site anyway), die when you sneeze on them, and you may not always get the unit you need.

Aks die when you sneeze on them, does that not make them worth building? Because I see them a lot. You imply that the energy needed to rez something is so massive that you couldn't substantiate it at level 1, you are very, very wrong. It hardly uses that much energy at all, I don't even know why you brought that up.

Chris Taylor put them at tier 2. Unless someone claims to know about Total Annihilation than Chris, maybe it would be better to put them back where they belong.

-A) You need E to rez.
-B) If the enemy sends a krog in and has no units around to secure the wreck when it dies, it's his own bad judgement.

What is the Krogoth's purpose if not for base assault? It's certainly not defense. The Krogoth is very much inclined to die in the middle of an enemy's base, doing massive damage before it's demise. Even pros would agree with this. The problem is that all you need is a little metal and energy and a level 1 kbot lab, 5 min of peace, and the Krogoth just became yours. How can you not say that this is imba?

-lol @ rezzing comms
Yeah, it is funny isn't it. A nuclear weapon which you can resurrect and use against your enemy. That's hilarious. Nobody would ever rez a COM!

-bunch 'o nonsense about DT
-ROFL

Similar to your thoughts that rezzing a commander is a noob thing to do, just because you don't find DTs to be overpowered, doesn't change the fact that they are. They take about a second to build and about 10 minutes to blow up. Yet there is no easy way to remove them from your path. What is ROFL about that? Please, back up your response with some logic instead of acting like the argument has 0 validity and you are too pro to respond too it.

Wing

edit:
neddiedrow wrote:Wingflier, most of the issues you bring up are irrelevant in a 1v1 context, which is why they will probably not be addressed.
I agree with you about these issues having a very little impact on a 1v1 game. Ironically, most games I ever see on Spring are between 8 and 16 people playing at once. The changes that I brought up will have little effect on 1v1 type scenarios, but in the games that are actually played, it will make a huge difference.
tombom
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Post by tombom »

trepan wrote:Regarding paralyzers & features:
http://spring.clan-sy.com/fisheye/chang ... g/?cs=4584
This might be a bit of a large change for BA.

Using Christ Taylor as a source of anything is just silly. Game designers aren't infallible and I doubt that he specifically decided every aspect of TA. There are so many other changes in BA it doesn't even matter.
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ginekolog
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Post by ginekolog »

about BB/timmy: They are fineoverall, but huge damage to ships is OP now.

Damages:
default = 2000
KROGOTH = 4800
ORCONE = 4800
SEADRAGON = 6000
BLACKHYDRA = 6000
MECHS = 3000
VULCBUZZ = 4000
L1SUBS = 5
L2SUBS = 5
L3SUBS = 5
FLAKBOATS = 6000
JAMMERBOATS = 6000
OTHERBOATS = 6000

I would leave default damage to ships and reduce damage to comms perhaps.
Harbinger
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Post by Harbinger »

Yet there is no easy way to remove them from your path.
Except for, you know, reclaiming them.
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KDR_11k
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Post by KDR_11k »

Wingflier wrote:Chris Taylor put them at tier 2. Unless someone claims to know about Total Annihilation than Chris, maybe it would be better to put them back where they belong.
By that logic noone should ever touch any number in OTA. After all, the balance is the way Chris Taylor designed it and can you claim to know better than Chris Taylor? By that logic Balanced Annihilation should never have existed because obviously only Chris Taylor is qualified to balance TA.
[Krogoth86]
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Post by [Krogoth86] »

ginekolog wrote:I would leave default damage to ships and reduce damage to comms perhaps.
Agreed though I would keep the high damage on Epoch / Black Hydra...
Harbinger wrote:
Yet there is no easy way to remove them from your path.
Crawling Bombs also do a good job on that. Besides: At T2 DTs are no problem anymore as pretty much everything if Bulldogs, Luger or Merl can crush them. The only obstacle then are the fortified walls but if they are built in large scale it costs your enemy a fortune and as they don't react as walls anymore (everything can shoot through them) that would be a waste of metal...
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Wingflier wrote:Chris Taylor put them at tier 2. Unless someone claims to know about Total Annihilation than Chris, maybe it would be better to put them back where they belong.
Yes we do. Look what Chris Taylor did to supcom. He's not infallible. Most BA devs have played TA in some variation roughly 10 times the amount CT has.
Klopper
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Post by Klopper »

-Only weapons DT stop to some extent are that of flash (not even gater i think?) and samson/slasher...so if swarming defenses with flash/gater fails due to dt wall, just bring a horde of stumpies which will just shoot over them and are good at shooting t1 defenses anyways (doing good damage and being able to take a number of hits before dying). Then shoot a small hole into the dt line with your tank army (they aren't invincible, and t2 tanks will shoot them down even easier) and send your flash in. If you need the hole really fast, bring some janus, they can do it really quick.

-If any changes to the minelayer for DT removal were to be done, I personally would just make them a bit more expensive and give them reclaim ability (so they could also be used as quick reclaimers like necros and air cons), Tired and Nixa both did it in their mods and it worked quite well imo

-I'm not sure if i like the possibility of emp weapons no longer killing features though...especially for spies and commandos...

-TBH i'd rather have the enemy rezzing the krog instead of just taking the metal and using it to instantly make a t2 airlab and tons of t2 bombers with fighter escort (which he always could without even needing hordes of rezbots first). Also, rezzing the krog and especially repairing it with cons takes time, and if i have enough econ to make krogs losing a single one willl usually not matter much, neither will a single rezzed one be a big threat since it can easily be dgunned, bertha'd, liche'd, sniped or just bombed with t2 bombers.

-Arm kbots in general are fine imo , especially because of snipers...zeus accuracy sucks bad but i think this is because of some hardcoded lightning stuff not BA values. Only thing I personally would do is slightly increasing fatboys DPS and very slightly decreasing mav buildtime...even though it can be quite useful with proper micro due to good speed, combat repair and very good dps (even more than a bulldog, only without aoe) imo their buildtime still is a tad too high, but that's just my personal opinion ofc.

-BB generally is fine atm too imho, they can be an annoyance but haven't caused me any troubles that can't be overcome yet...also, their aoe is much smaller than it looks, to t2 troops like tanks and sumos they do very mediocre damage, and without scouting or at least radar coverage they won't help you too much considering their cost. If they would have to be nerfed i probably would just decrease their corps value (for harder replacement if they get bombed)...but they don't have to be imo. I haven't seen them against ships much yet though...

-Intrusion countermeasures are epic fail due to cost and range (and if you want some fun, watch the ring a single sniper causes atm :D )

-Rapiers and Blades are teh suck atm, they couldn't hit their own feet if they had some :D
Last edited by Klopper on 16 Oct 2007, 11:50, edited 2 times in total.
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KingRaptor
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Post by KingRaptor »

What is the Krogoth's purpose if not for base assault? It's certainly not defense. The Krogoth is very much inclined to die in the middle of an enemy's base, doing massive damage before it's demise. Even pros would agree with this. The problem is that all you need is a little metal and energy and a level 1 kbot lab, 5 min of peace, and the Krogoth just became yours. How can you not say that this is imba?
If your team doesn't have twenty Bulldogs tailing the krog and/or you don't know to self-D the krog just before it dies, maybe it's the user rather than the game mechanics that are a problem.
Yeah, it is funny isn't it. A nuclear weapon which you can resurrect and use against your enemy. That's hilarious. Nobody would ever rez a COM!
How many times have you seen someone win because of a rezzed comm?

(Contrary to popular belief, you can't just walk your comm into enemy lines and destroy over nine thousand metal worth of d-fenz. In pretty much every situation, it is far better to just reclaim the comm wreck - though watching noobs trying to rez a partially reclaimed comm wreck is always funny.)
Similar to your thoughts that rezzing a commander is a noob thing to do, just because you don't find DTs to be overpowered, doesn't change the fact that they are. They take about a second to build and about 10 minutes to blow up. Yet there is no easy way to remove them from your path. What is ROFL about that? Please, back up your response with some logic instead of acting like the argument has 0 validity and you are too pro to respond too it.
Now that you mention it...

Since I'm nicer than sleksa, though, I'll tell you why you're wrong.

-A lot of units (basically, Stumpies and anything higher-level) can shoot over DTs.
Quote:
Yet there is no easy way to remove them from your path.

Except for, you know, reclaiming them.
-Con vehicles and planes reclaim DTs fairly well (if the enemy LLTs are close enough to the DT line to kill your con before it can reclaim more than 5 DTs, they're close enough to kill using any one of quite a number of means).

-DTs seem to create a psychological barrier on the part of the person making them. "Oh noes, I can't possibly advance past this nice DT line which keeps me nice and safe!" The attacker, meanwhile, will easily be finding ways to go around them, or even over them.

DTs are merely an augmentation to a defensive line. They are not some OMFGWTFPWN barrier that instantly brings all attacks to a halt. But hey, if you want to ring your entire territory with them, you're welcome to it.


In closing, I'd like to say:
KDR_11k wrote:
Wingflier wrote:Chris Taylor put them at tier 2. Unless someone claims to know about Total Annihilation than Chris, maybe it would be better to put them back where they belong.
By that logic noone should ever touch any number in OTA. After all, the balance is the way Chris Taylor designed it and can you claim to know better than Chris Taylor? By that logic Balanced Annihilation should never have existed because obviously only Chris Taylor is qualified to balance TA.
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

i stopped reading your bullshit after this
My second problem with BA is something that should be obviously unbalanced to everybody. Who's genius idea was it to put the rez bots in level 1 tech? What is the reasoning behind this? They are not needed in that spot. Would you put Cans and Mavericks in level 1 factories? What about invisible spy kbots? Freakers/Farks? Of course not, that's totally absurd. Think about the cost to benefit ratio. In one game I completely resurrected an enemy Krogoth in about 5 min for almost nothing. And the fact that you can rez commanders at any point in the game is a bit lame.

My second problem
go make a mutator instead of crying and well see how good the gameplay will be with your grand ideas
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Machiosabre
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Post by Machiosabre »

ginekolog wrote: MECHS = 3000
by the way I think it might be a good idea to get rid of the mech class and replace it with a jugg class, since the other mechs really don't need any extra incentive to suck balls.
RavingManiac
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Post by RavingManiac »

KingRaptor wrote: Contrary to popular belief, you can't just walk your comm into enemy lines and destroy over nine thousand metal worth of d-fenz.
Nowadays, all you need is a single atlas for a T1 defense line and a dragonfly with a few peepers for heavy AA. You have to admit, with everyone receiving a free nuke at the start of a game, only the honor of players prevents every single Spring match from degenerating into a combomb fest.
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

RavingManiac wrote:
KingRaptor wrote: Contrary to popular belief, you can't just walk your comm into enemy lines and destroy over nine thousand metal worth of d-fenz.
Nowadays, all you need is a single air transport for a T1 defense line and a dragonfly with a few peepers for heavy AA. You have to admit, with everyone receiving a free nuke at the start of a game, only the honor of players prevents every single Spring match from degenerating into a combomb fest.

LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE FORGOT THAT THERE ARE LINEAGE AND COMM DIES= GAME ENDS OPTIONS TOO?
RavingManiac
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Post by RavingManiac »

At most, only 50% of all games are lineage/com ends. This is because several phoenixes are all it takes to effectively end a game....

Solution: Set lineage as default and make the com more resilient to bombers.
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

Solution: set commander to hold position in some place, and put him into return fire, then press K for CLOACK and build some AA
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rattle
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Post by rattle »

Or give the comm a rapid fire BLOAD called the flyswatter. Bombers and gunships ain't messing with this comm.
Klopper
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Post by Klopper »

COM NEEDS MAVERICK GUNS AND A FLAK ON EACH SHOULDER :D
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Peace
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Post by Peace »

This thread is a pretty fun read while at work. Specially the stuff about the non-removable/invincible DT ;)

Seriously though: so what's the general opinion about the T2 ARM kbots? I feel like they could use some balance lovin'...
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

well you cant really spam single units with t2 bots and expect to win.

as i've said before like 20 times in different places, a mix of some zeus tanking and fido/mav and sniper being a step behind making dps is a nice combo that can take you pretty far.
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KingRaptor
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Post by KingRaptor »

On a side note, bring back tbfitw plz
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