Balanced Annihilation V5.8

[Sleksa]

well krogothe you just described a situation where the enemy building the LRPC(s) has;

1) SUPERIOR ECONOMY
2) SUPERIOR LAND FORCE
3) SUPERIOR AIRFORCE
4) SUPERIOR SCOUTING
5) SUPERIOR HEAVY ARTILLERY
6) SUPERIOR DEFENCE

and yet you say he needs to be countered easily?




Also, there is no "OMFG THIS SHIT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION PLS FIX IT"

youre mindset is wrong. If there is a way to counter a thing you dont whine that its not the one you want, you use the counter that is there.


as i have already said, please refrain from posting idiocy. youre mindset and ideas are wrong

Ok - it's an option but do you really want to let Bertha rush be the general tactic to win a late game or let luck decide who wins (if both players get one at pretty much the same time and it depends on the random accuracy)...

looks like someone hasnt really ever played OTA.

[[Krogoth86]]

1) SUPERIOR ECONOMY

Nah - I only did point out a situation where killing the BBs at all costs to just survive is a losing bargain. I didn't mention economy otherwise...

2) SUPERIOR LAND FORCE

Not obligatory...
It's just that if you rush ahead with your tanks to get to his Bertha his Doomsdays or what he has will rip apart your units with pleasure as you try to just drive beyond them maybe through only one small hole in his walls. Well even if you reach the BB and kill it the enemy might be glad as you have just done an all out ground attack with leaving all the precious metal corpses to reclaim. So yeah you're the man of BB death - until he'll strike back with the metal you've donated to him...

If you can just do a blind all out attack and throw down the enemy defense line, get to his interior and reach the BB your enemy is down anyway and the BB won't help him very much...

3) SUPERIOR AIRFORCE

If you call a fighter shield (which is backed up by ground AA) a superior airforce then yes...

4) SUPERIOR SCOUTING

Well as seismic detectors are rarely built you nearly always can let a spy slip through the lines and scout the enemy - there's nothing superior about it, just micro. Besides you most likely will know his lab positions and so on from earlier in the game when there still are voids in his AA so that your scouts can slip through...

5) SUPERIOR HEAVY ARTILLERY

If one BB in comparison to no BB is superior heavy artillery for you then yes...

6) SUPERIOR DEFENCE

This is a bit connected to the predecessing points but yes - due to the new accuracy he'll also have a good ground defense with his LRPCs...

I now also will do a short answer on your previous posting:

i cant even reply to this, you are a pure fucking genious.

Maybe I should write big [sarcasm]...[/sarcasm] tags around it next time so there is no misunderstanding...

everything you are saying hear regarding balancing is utterly ignored or laughed at

Well I can live with you ignoring my posts or laughing about them...

[MR.D]

Shields need to work, Period.

But what you continually ignore is logical balance for a fully efficient shield system.

Shields should reflect, Bertha and Plasma type artillery only.

It should "significantly" drain energy while it is deflecting a shot.

It should cost about as much as a Bertha in M & E initial costs.

Its buildtime should be slightly less than construction of the Bertha.

Its should be easily countered by ground forces, swarms of light plasma units, and by Cruise/EMP missles, and air.

And perhaps is should even act like Jammers, when they take damage, they turn off briefly, this would also add incentive to attack the generator directly by other means, but if its going to turn off when damaged, it better damn well block bertha shots from doing that damage consistently on its own.

[Hellspawn]

1.) Solution for BB shooting at units. Mix expensive units with cheap ones (like flashes/scouts)
2.) Even if Enemy has like 30 lvl 1 fighters in air and decent anti air, it still isn't impossible to come trough. Make 50 scouts instead of 30 or mix in fighters as well. I played 1v1 on SB few days ago. Enemy had fighters, defenders (those anti air towers) all over sea and ground and flaks at his main base. 5 bombers and 30 scouts still came trough. Also in 95% of games there are lines where there isn't a lot of AA. You can also make those long range lvl 2 AA buildings (forgot name) and lure enemy fighters into range. Use that.

I played like 10 FFA games on CC in last. ALmost every opponents tried "teching" to BB, I teched to lvl 2 air and bombed their asses.

I lost due BB in team games only when I was more or less dead anyway (had far inferior economy then enemy).

I'll try playing few more team games when I'll have time. But imho BB aren't some magical unit which wins game.

[Sleksa]

mr.d the only thing i agree with you in your post is the first line

But what you continually ignore is logical balance for a fully efficient shield system.

please explain this line as i do not understand it. Do you mean it is logical to have a fully efficient shield system in ba? if so please tell me why.

Well I can live with you ignoring my posts or laughing about them...

i cant, i want you to stop speaking bullshit.


i have never seen you play and yet youre speaking here to hellspawn like you have the biggest dick in the shower. Until i see you actually play decently ill continue to laugh at/ignore you and think of you as a kiddie who lost and blames the game instead of trying to improve.

or even see you play at all. Im not sure if you even do play

[tombom]

He does, just under a different name (Lucy, Magnesium). He has the second highest ingame under one name IIRC.

[Sleksa]

he's lucy?

[[Krogoth86]]

@Mr.D:
I sup that. Especially that jammer behaviour is a cool idea though it might suck that when there is some debris flying around again and the shield will turn off due to that...

Another thing I saw in an older shield documentation was the possibility to have it react as an "umbrella" i.e. only that shield layer reflects - if you are inside the shield your shots won't be reflected. If that's still possible I'd like that too as it finally would make it somewhat vulnerable to tanks...

2.) Even if Enemy has like 30 lvl 1 fighters in air and decent anti air, it still isn't impossible to come trough. Make 50 scouts instead of 30 or mix in fighters as well. I played 1v1 on SB few days ago. Enemy had fighters, defenders (those anti air towers) all over sea and ground and flaks at his main base. 5 bombers and 30 scouts still came trough. Also in 95% of games there are lines where there isn't a lot of AA. You can also make those long range lvl 2 AA buildings (forgot name) and lure enemy fighters into range. Use that.

I think you meant 30 Lvl 2 fighters there...
Besides that is one of the situations I described. Yes you can do that scout thing or spam bombers - the problem about this is that this will take you hell of a time and after killing the Bertha none of your invested metal is left as the enemy still might have a Bertha corpse. As you now have struggled to kill the Bertha in order not to get leveled you have concentrated all your current ressources on that task while your enemy can gain strength for a ground assault or something. If you once are in the situation that your enemy has a LRPC and you just stand with your back to a wall and have to attack in the described way. With properly working shields you can safeguard your most important areas and thus plan something like a real counter-attack instead of just throwing in all you have to get down that one building...

have never seen you play and yet youre speaking here to hellspawn like you have the biggest dick in the shower. Until i see you actually play decently ill continue to laugh at/ignore you and think of you as a kiddie who lost and blames the game instead of trying to improve.

True - I've also pretty much never seen you in the Lobby although I play on a daily basis for months now. I could prove that but I think you're not that childish to ask me for wittnesses now - are you?

So let's end this dispute...

[Sleksa]

With properly working shields you can safeguard your most important areas and thus plan something like a real counter-attack instead of just throwing in all you have to get down that one building...

how hard can popping up 10 peepers and 15 t2 bombers be when its a lategame situation?

the problem about this is that this will take you hell of a time and after killing the Bertha none of your invested metal is left as the enemy still might have a Bertha corpse.

oh, making 15 phoenixes takes time , but getting lrpcs up doesnt?

As you now have struggled to kill the Bertha in order not to get leveled you have concentrated all your current ressources on that task while your enemy can gain strength for a ground assault or something.

utter bullshit. the metal he spent on that lrpc wasnt conjured up, nor were the cons assisting it. That's unless you can somehow magically conjure tons of metal ingame (read;hack)

With properly working shields you can safeguard your most important areas and thus plan something like a real counter-attack instead of just throwing in all you have to get down that one building...

The whole point of the lrpc is that it can reach your most protected and important areas, where other units cannot penetrate. making a system that removes this threat also removes the reason behind building berthas.

To buy that time to device a real counter-attack you can do panic-built radar jammers so that the opponent needs to scout, and by the time the opponent gets scout up you should have some defence to counter the scouting attempt, so that the opponent doesnt have constant LOS into your base.

Also note that this situation with LRPCs was much worse in ota, where some games were basically runs on who could get the first bertha up. yet despite that people learnt to cope with it and devise counters to it, like nanoshielding. Because there wasnt something as hard as a shield-system, the players were forced to innovate and come up with ideas to protect and win themselves, and they actually did accomplish that to some extent

[DemO]

This discussion is major fail. MAJOR FAIL!!!

Dissapointing, even sleksa!

[Acidd_UK]

Can I be Private Win? Then me and Major Fail, together, we fight crime!

[Klopper]

One should also take into account that since BBs are more accurate now they are also less usefull without good scouting since their shells bombard a much smaller area, therefore having a much lesser chance of randomly hitting soft stuff (like windfarms, metalmakers and nanofarms) once in a while everywhere in a base. :D
Also, on many maps BB positions can be relatively easily guessed, especially when seeing the direction from which the shells are coming (like the penis hills on Tabula and the middle start area hills on Tropical).

[Hellspawn]

I think you meant 30 Lvl 2 fighters there...
Besides that is one of the situations I described. Yes you can do that scout thing or spam bombers - the problem about this is that this will take you hell of a time and after killing the Bertha none of your invested metal is left as the enemy still might have a Bertha corpse. As you now have struggled to kill the Bertha in order not to get leveled you have concentrated all your current ressources on that task while your enemy can gain strength for a ground assault or something.

Ok so enemy has LRCP, fully lvl 2 ground defence, fully lvl 2 AA AND 30 lvl 2 fighters.

But you don't even have 5 lvl 2 bombers and few peepers?

Sorry, but you haven't lost this game due LRCP.

[[Krogoth86]]

oh, making 15 phoenixes takes time , but getting lrpcs up doesnt?

Well 15 Phoenixes won't make it through a Lvl 2 Fighter shield plus ground AA - you have to surround them with scouts or something just like Hellspawn said and this costs even more metal but especially it costs you precious time. Time you are under BB fire and time you have to fight against while he's building another one or just rebuilding his first...

The whole point of the lrpc is that it can reach your most protected and important areas, where other units cannot penetrate. making a system that removes this threat also removes the reason behind building berthas.

I don't think you should argue that way because you could say the same for nukes which take even longer to build, are harder to use on moving targets and cost more but I don't think you'd like a game without Antinukes...

Also note that this situation with LRPCs was much worse in ota, where some games were basically runs on who could get the first bertha up. yet despite that people learnt to cope with it and devise counters to it, like nanoshielding. Because there wasnt something as hard as a shield-system, the players were forced to innovate and come up with ideas to protect and win themselves, and they actually did accomplish that to some extent

Yep - this is true but did you like it this way oder do you like the shields we now have which though aren't strong enough yet as they can be gunned down by what they should counter in little time?

But you don't even have 5 lvl 2 bombers and few peepers?

Sorry, but you haven't lost this game due LRCP.

Selecting some of your fighters and make them attack the bombers manually isn't a big deal as when seeing it realistic you even have more time for this as most games slow down a bit with much air underway. Besides - I'm not sure about it but wasn't at least ground AA fixed in a way to target bombers first instead of fighters, scouts and so on?

This way it should be an easy task to bring down at least 3 of the bombers as this is all you have to do I think because a BB should survive two bombers (but modinfo is down so I'm not sure about this)...

[DemO]

Basically you're saying that its not fair that the defending guy should have to "waste" resources in bombers to take out BB's but it's perfectly reasonable for the guy who actually built the BB to have to make bombers and lose them to take down DEFENSIVE shields so that his BB can do damage again.

Thus making it so the attacking strategy of making berthas requires Berthas + Bombers but the Defensive guy only requires Shields.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

if its OP then just make them yourself instead of trying to find a counter, posting here is joke

[LordMatt]

Also note that this situation with LRPCs was much worse in ota, where some games were basically runs on who could get the first bertha up. yet despite that people learnt to cope with it and devise counters to it, like nanoshielding. Because there wasnt something as hard as a shield-system, the players were forced to innovate and come up with ideas to protect and win themselves, and they actually did accomplish that to some extent

ppl actually made bombers and scouted before the LRPC was even made (imagine that) and so it became necessary on maps like GPP to hide the BB under a gas bag or a tree to make sure you got off enough shots to make building the BB worthwhile. STILL, games were played, people had fun, and life went on. Nanoshielding was an interesting tactic that worked for both BBs and guardians. It's too bad it doesn't work with spring IMO.

sleksa and hellspawn are getting at one crucial point, that none of the nubs in this thread (even ones with tonnes of gametime) understand. You are all thinking about how to defend against X, defend against Y, etc. Well while you are doing all this defending, who is thinking about winning the game? One of your allies in yet another 8v8 Deltasiege dry game? Or are you all sitting there defending and without a plan to win. If BB are so OP that they ruin games, why not exploit the shit out of them and win all your games. I think you'll find that other factors than making a BB determine the outcome of the game, more often than not. If you hate using BB, why not make an air factory with some bombers and have them in reserve so you can bomb the BB (or any other important target)? Why not scout your enemy so you know exactly when he went adv, when he started BB, etc?

Back to OTA, all this whining about ZOMG IF MY ENEMIE MAEK BB THEN HE HAV TONNES AA is forgetting the fact that in OTA, defenders WERE THE GROUND DEFENCE there were no llts built, just tonnes and tonnes of MT forests. Of course BBs were thus well protected by AA, except good players still managed to bomb them and scout them. There's no excuse for not doing this in spring. BB are not what they were in OTA, but at least they have a purpose now in some situations, whereas before they were a waste of metal.

Regarding mobile units, maybe you should make sure your army is spread out if you're being shelled by BB. If you lack the micro skills to make that happen, then you deserve to lose units to the BB.

[[Krogoth86]]

if its OP then just make them yourself instead of trying to find a counter, posting here is joke

So if you see something and it's overpowered in your opinion you just don't say a word and hope it gets fixed? The way you say this is rather selfish - ok if we had a big balancing flaw of any kind and you use it over and over again you might win because of that. But it also gets boooring very fast so you might want it to get fixed to actually enjoy the game and are not "forced" to do the same over and over again. You also don't try to say it out loud and look if others have the same opinion on that who might show you that you're wrong?

sleksa and hellspawn are getting at one crucial point, that none of the nubs in this thread (even ones with tonnes of gametime) understand. You are all thinking about how to defend against X, defend against Y, etc.

Unfortunately it seems that you have not understood the message of what I'm saying:
I wanted to say that shields should become better. In order not to throw in just a request without any argument I tried to show up some situations where a good working shield would be of use. You also agreed on that / consider it as an option and as you mentioned that the discussion was pretty much over for me...

As a matter of fact you also started to make the discussion digress as you just said "Bomb them." as response to my shield upgrade request and from that point on. And again: As I said the point you make isn't wrong but I then started to show a situation where "Bomb them." as the only option to do won't work out very well and thus some working shields would be cool as an alternative or just to buy time or whatever...

[LordMatt]

As a matter of fact you also started to make the discussion digress as you just said "Bomb them." as response to my shield upgrade request and from that point on.

Yeah it's my fault that other people flame you. Also I made it clear I'm not against making shields better, though I doubt I'll ever have reason to build one.

So if you see something and it's overpowered in your opinion you just don't say a word and hope it gets fixed? The way you say this is rather selfish - ok if we had a big balancing flaw of any kind and you use it over and over again you might win because of that. But it also gets boooring very fast so you might want it to get fixed to actually enjoy the game and are not "forced" to do the same over and over again. You also don't try to say it out loud and look if others have the same opinion on that who might show you that you're wrong?

Let me let you in on a little secret of how OP units get fixed in BA. Some good players discover the OP unit, abuse the shit out of it, and then when they get bored they say (privately) 'hey Noize I think XX is OP cause I pwned tonnes with it.' Then Noize asks some other good players to see if they agree that XX is OP. If a reasonable number agree then it gets changed, otherwise, those other good players say 'well if u just make YY and use it properly it works as counter.' Then eventually some of the nubs see some good player making YY and making it properly, and they take one step towards becoming better players.

Balance in BA has very little to do with what is posted in the BA thread and forums, unless its posted by someone who has a reputation of being a good player and being knowledgeable about the game. The main purpose of the BA thread is as place for sleksa to make fun of nubs, and perhaps for the nicer ones of us to explain why XX isn't OP if you just make YY and use it properly.

[[Krogoth86]]

otherwise, those other good players say 'well if u just make YY and use it properly it works as counter.' Then eventually some of the nubs see some good player making YY and making it properly, and they take one step towards becoming better players.

Well I now could say that in the situation I described using air as the only option which isn't good in that case gives you no counters to evade on which is why I'm asking for shields as an alternative. But I think that would be no good idea as the discussion now is about bombing runs and that they always are succesful and never ineffective...

Well - I think you will agree that the recent discussion won't lead to anything new as what was said and so we maybe should point down the following:
"Shields currently are of little use and so should be improved..."

Allright?