Balanced Annihilation 5.61 is out! - Page 3

Balanced Annihilation 5.61 is out!

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DemO
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Post by DemO »

making janus in 1v1 before mid-late / end game is a sign of noob, since the janus are so easily countered by 1 jeffy & 1 flash, and they also take your precious micro time from raiding/protecting expos/expoing, im having trouble doing just those 3 with average of 150-220 apm.
Janus is a unit that can be used pretty effectively in some conditions/maps. Good examples are:

They are great for ripping samson/slasher swarms apart when nothing else gets in weapon range for long enough to do any reasonable damage before being killed by their rockets.

They are effective against flash/stumpy when the flash and stumpies are forced to attack through a narrow margin, i.e. a chokepoint or terrain where they can only go through a small area on the map, often up-hill meaning they progress slower too. (cooper hill for example)

They are good for taking out guarded defences with a more guaranteed success rate (i.e. the static defences die) than other units. Particularly against statics with higher HP such as HLTs/beamers/hllts

They are AWESOME against some T2 units, particularly those with high armour and slow speed (SUMO or CAN or ZEUS for example, and against T2 units with similar range to janus but low/med HP - such as the Maverick).

Good for picking at enemy structures/units in a situation where both players have defence lines (mainly with more structures and less units) set up close to each other.

Good at owning comms.

Good at attacking statics in raised positions (such as on small hills or pillars, e.g. Brazillian Battlefield/Metalheck) This is because they are pretty much the only T1 unit outwith nixer/wombat hovers that can do substantial damage to a RAISED structure which other units can't shoot due to range/weapon class issues. Samsons/Slashers can pick off these structures if they are small/mid range such as llt's/beamers/hllts but it tends to take considerable time due to LOS issues and low dps, by which time the enemy can bring some forces in to force samson retreat.
___

If you're trying to say that microing a group of janus is harder than trying to co-ordinate jeffy/flash or jeffy/stumpy groups to counter them I really don't understand your logic. Keep in mind that to counter a large group of janus you'll need quite a few assault units and quite a few scouts to pull it off effectively, which takes time to build and co-ordinate an assault, and the micro required to counter IMO vastly outweighs the micro required to use the janus in any of the above situations that favours them, which is generally where you see them used anyway.

Sure, its pretty stupid to build janus early game in 99.9% of 1v1 games, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that mid-game janus is noobish. Note that I am not a player that tends to use janus out with very occasional circumstances so I'm not trying to defend them because I'm a fanboy, although I have observed them to be very effective more often than not in the above situations.

Oh and, SPAM CLICKS FTL SLEK.
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Lolsquad_Steven
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Post by Lolsquad_Steven »

Janus need repair ):'(|) verse kbot

Slek need smoother unit control

demo need less words
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

yeah demo you're right, i forgot that there are other maps than cc out there ;]

metal heck for example is a good map to spam them, not sure about cooper, since going veh on that map imo is not that good of a idea.

but brazillian battlefield is very nice with its chokepoints between those mountains, coupled with building up a metal storage to the passage way so the flash cant just rush through, and putting up a janus or few behind it = GG



If you're trying to say that microing a group of janus is harder than trying to co-ordinate jeffy/flash or jeffy/stumpy groups to counter them I really don't understand your logic. Keep in mind that to counter a large group of janus you'll need quite a few assault units and quite a few scouts to pull it off effectively, which takes time to build and co-ordinate an assault, and the micro required to counter IMO vastly outweighs the micro required to use the janus in any of the above situations that favours them, which is generally where you see them used anyway.
tbh i've never seen someone win with janus spam on comet ;)

its because the janus are way too slow,and they take too much resources and time to get, so i personally mix them with a ratio of 1:10, and keep them close to llts/other flash.

Sure, its pretty stupid to build janus early game in 99.9% of 1v1 games, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that mid-game janus is noobish.
depends on your income and buildpower and how much you are getting raided, but yeah a few of them might be ok, but i would personally still rely more on flash/jeffies/stumpies.
Slek need smoother unit control
: ' (
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Snipafox
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Post by Snipafox »

scratch that
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Snipafox wrote:scratch that
Scratch what?
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Acidd_UK
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Post by Acidd_UK »

that
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Acidd_UK
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Post by Acidd_UK »

or maybe that

(double post ftl :-( )
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Pendrokar
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Post by Pendrokar »

Sleksa wrote:
MR.D wrote:Now that Vulcans are even stronger, how about making shields worth a shit?

Even standard bertha shots penetrate shields with ease, how are we to expect that an even higher velocity shot is going to be deflected?
vulcan uses the same weapontype as berthas do, the only difference is that vulcan spits those yellow balls faster
But thats stupid that bertha can destroy a plasma shield!!! Increase the shields size(maybe decrease strength) so that plasma can be deflected faster + IMO the shields would be more useful if the bubble would be stretched horizontally more, so that plasma that is shot close horizontally wouldn't fall down inside the shield!!
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

But thats stupid that bertha can destroy a plasma shield!!!
actually 1 bertha is not usually enough to bring a shield down.

shields are supposed to NOT be 100% safeguard against lrpcs, despite what you may think of.


if you want to be 100% safe, tac nuke/nuke/gremlin/sniper/t2 bomber the enemy's lrpcs down.
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Mr.Frumious
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Post by Mr.Frumious »

I remember one idea Caydr was entertaining (but I don't know if the engine supported) was switching the shield to be two-way, so that units couldn't shoot out of it or into it. This made the shield into a bertha-wall used for protecting your resources, while defenses had to be located outside. It could be much more powerful under those circumstances, since then it wouldn't be just an anti-nuke for berthas.
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D »

Most combat units need to be inside the shield's range to hit the generator though, you then leave it to very specific units to kill that 1 building.

Meaning, you either MERL it, use BANISHERS, use units that ignore the plasma deflection or air?

Also leaves it up to exploits, where the center (hitshpere) of a defence can be blocked by the edge of the shield, while the weapon firing point could be outside the shield, as the shield is spherical, there could be easy ways around that I guess.

The biggest problem with shields right now, is 3 part.

#1. It barely drains energy while it is deflecting shots, any weak T1 energy income ( 400+ e ) could support a shield under heavy duress.

#2. The deflection push strength of shields in BA are too weak (as is) to effectively stop any Bertha attack, and quite often the shield generator takes direct hits, and doesn't really protect anything within its boundaries, except in very rare situations.

#3. Shields range isn't enough to protect an area from attack much larger than the combat distance of a single bulldog tank, and coupled with the weak deflection strength, that area becomes even smaller, more like the range of a pewee's weapon that can actually stay unharmed from Bertha fire.
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KDR_11k
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Post by KDR_11k »

I think you're supposed to place the shield between the expected position of an LRPC and the target so it acts like a bumper instead of putting stuff inside the shield radius.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

KDR_11k wrote:I think you're supposed to place the shield between the expected position of an LRPC and the target so it acts like a bumper instead of putting stuff inside the shield radius.
That does end up more effective.
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

MR.D wrote:Now that Vulcans are even stronger, how about making shields worth a shit?

Even standard bertha shots penetrate shields with ease, how are we to expect that an even higher velocity shot is going to be deflected?
We ran a test, 2 shields VS 10 vulcans. The shields ran fine blocking all shots with T1 E economy, the vulcans required 15 some odd advanced fusions.

Shields are MORE than fine.
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

stfu noob i knows better than u shield need buff omfg my fusion blew up under it from a nuke ?????? WTF WHY DONT SHIELD BLOCK NUKE???? OR MISSIL??

WHY MAKE 1337K METAL SHIELD THAT CAN DIE VS 100 METAL STORM?? this game is balanced by noobs ...



(still needing input from t2 lab costs affecting gameplay >_>)
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MR.D
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Post by MR.D »

Go back to your crib Sleksa
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Labs seem fine. Radar, however, are glitching. I'll have full E when constructing them and they'll switch off for some reason, though this error cannot be consistently reproduced.
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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Post by Saktoth »

Yeah radars turn on and off randomly, that luarule is naff. We've become used to the 'BLOOP BLOOP BOOP' of radars going on and off all game.

Ive noticed little to no effect from the lab cost change. Its still a huge cost in lump-sum, it still presents most of the same problems of needing a comwreck or otherwise huge economy to afford. I think people need a lot of time to absorb a change like this before they begin to exploit it. The major effect would probably be on greenfields, where teching and every inch of economy matters.

As for shields, they are a wall, not a bubble. Put them between your base and the enemy bertha, and most shots fired at your base will skim off the top of the shield. Dont use them as a bubble and stick them right on top of your adv fusion (Though you can still do this, if you use 2 layered on top of eachother).

The problem with shields is that berthas can actually blow up the shield itself, if they fire directly at it. This is random chance- sometimes it only takes 3-4 shots, sometimes the bertha cant even do enough damage to overcomes the shields HP regen. A nanotower placed well behind the shield set to guard it will help to reduce the likelyhood of this happening.
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Pendrokar
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Post by Pendrokar »

Sleksa wrote: (still needing input from t2 lab costs affecting gameplay >_>)
Well t2 airports shouldn't have been changed, cause now I can quickly make a t2 airport and start bombing by building 300 metal(too cheap for t2 bomber) strategic bombers and make one bombing run that is already enough to finish off the game(afterwards players build tough AA)! Other t2 labs are fine!!!
shields are supposed to NOT be 100% safeguard against lrpcs, despite what you may think of.


if you want to be 100% safe, tac nuke/nuke/gremlin/sniper/t2 bomber the enemy's lrpcs down.
Well not 100% that is in the shield just 100% to the shield generator!!!
I remember one idea Caydr was entertaining (but I don't know if the engine supported) was switching the shield to be two-way, so that units couldn't shoot out of it or into it. This made the shield into a bertha-wall used for protecting your resources, while defenses had to be located outside. It could be much more powerful under those circumstances, since then it wouldn't be just an anti-nuke for berthas.
Wouldn't mind this one! Though it would mean the end of Trademarks 16 Way Hack Vulcan/Buzzsaw fights!
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Sleksa
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Post by Sleksa »

neddiedrow wrote:Labs seem fine. Radar, however, are glitching. I'll have full E when constructing them and they'll switch off for some reason, though this error cannot be consistently reproduced.
we're looking into this atm.
As for shields, they are a wall, not a bubble. Put them between your base and the enemy bertha, and most shots fired at your base will skim off the top of the shield. Dont use them as a bubble and stick them right on top of your adv fusion (Though you can still do this, if you use 2 layered on top of eachother).
true!
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