yeah i was wondering abotu that... i thoguht that you put weasel rushing into CA on purpose or something when is aw your avatar
Absolute Annihilation 2.4 (June 16/07)
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Nobody understands CA. 
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KingRaptor
- Zero-K Developer
- Posts: 838
- Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 03:44
What I don't like about CA:
[3:47:24 PM] <KingRaptor> I still need to know whose smart idea was it to give T2 tanks ubar HP.
[3:47:31 PM] <[CA]Fox> It was italian boi's
[3:47:37 PM] <[CA]Fox> I told him t2 tanks odn't even need changing
[3:47:56 PM] <[CA]Fox> but he was liek
[3:47:57 PM] <[CA]Fox> NOES!!!!
[3:48:04 PM] <[CA]Fox> GULIATH NEEDZZZ 14K
[3:48:11 PM] <[CA]Fox> LUGARR NEEDZ 1.4k range
[3:48:13 PM] <[CA]Fox> ;...;
[3:50:04 PM] <[CA]Fox> He wanted to change air
[3:50:05 PM] <[CA]Fox> he tried
[3:50:08 PM] <[CA]Fox> but he miserably failed
[3:50:10 PM] <[CA]Fox> got poor results
[3:50:15 PM] <KingRaptor> lol
[3:50:17 PM] <[CA]Fox> so he maek'd reverty revert and just FXed it up
[3:50:22 PM] <KingRaptor> lol
[3:50:23 PM] <[CA]Fox> victory for me \o/
[3:50:28 PM] <KingRaptor> what's wrong with air anyway?
[3:51:17 PM] <[CA]Fox> Nothing.
[3:51:24 PM] <[CA]Fox> But quantum's idea is
[3:51:28 PM] <[CA]Fox> that if we dun chaenge itzz
[3:51:32 PM] <[CA]Fox> it r not coal!11
[3:51:35 PM] <[CA]Fox> >__>
[3:51:41 PM] <KingRaptor> <.<
T2 vehicles are currently underpowered in CA. Try a few games of CA Tactics, and it will be obvious that given a determined amount of resources, you're better off spending them in T1 units. In yesterday's games, new and veteran CA players have observed that in BA 5.4, Tech 2 is much more worthwhile.
The work on air is not scrapped. What is scrapped is high altitude planes, because Spring's unit handling code tries to bring them to cruise altitude before executing the next order in the queue. I'll get back to air once I'm done exploring the new Lua features.
Things can be worth improving even if they are not broken, otherwise I might as well scrap the whole of CA.
Balance means that there are many viable strategies to achieve your goals. CA does have underpowered units at the moment, but still, there are many more options than in BA, in my opinion. And the tactics are more interesting, you can't expect a group that contains only one type of unit to be efficient, even at Tech 1.
But then I might be kinda biased
Woops, I'm taking over Caydr's thread.
Maybe split if this goes too far?
The work on air is not scrapped. What is scrapped is high altitude planes, because Spring's unit handling code tries to bring them to cruise altitude before executing the next order in the queue. I'll get back to air once I'm done exploring the new Lua features.
Things can be worth improving even if they are not broken, otherwise I might as well scrap the whole of CA.
Balance means that there are many viable strategies to achieve your goals. CA does have underpowered units at the moment, but still, there are many more options than in BA, in my opinion. And the tactics are more interesting, you can't expect a group that contains only one type of unit to be efficient, even at Tech 1.
But then I might be kinda biased
Woops, I'm taking over Caydr's thread.
Maybe split if this goes too far?
I think a lot of mods have this problem of balancing for T2. Here's my approach:
For testing purposes, make all factories dirt cheap. Like, cheap enough that it's cheaper to build factories than assist. Even at L2.
Right now, most hardcore play rarely gets to L2, and for the first while at L2 anyways your factories are tied up building support units (constructors, jammers, etc.) so L2 combat units rarely get the heavy play... and by the time the L2 combat units can really start wreaking havoc, the game is usually a one-sided stomp anyways. So L2 never gets the balance attention it needs.
So you need to change the mod so that players (at least in testing) are given instant access to all the myriad units. Then players will find out "ohhhh, peewees kinda pwn pyros - does that make sense?" or whatever.
Not that L1 should be inferior to L2. Just so that all units are useful proportionally to their cost.
Right now, the primary reason to hit L2 in most mods is just the moho extractors, spies, and artillery units (including sharpshooter as "artillery" since that's how players use it) .... which doesn't make a lot of sense. L2 combat units are a rare sight.
For testing purposes, make all factories dirt cheap. Like, cheap enough that it's cheaper to build factories than assist. Even at L2.
Right now, most hardcore play rarely gets to L2, and for the first while at L2 anyways your factories are tied up building support units (constructors, jammers, etc.) so L2 combat units rarely get the heavy play... and by the time the L2 combat units can really start wreaking havoc, the game is usually a one-sided stomp anyways. So L2 never gets the balance attention it needs.
So you need to change the mod so that players (at least in testing) are given instant access to all the myriad units. Then players will find out "ohhhh, peewees kinda pwn pyros - does that make sense?" or whatever.
Not that L1 should be inferior to L2. Just so that all units are useful proportionally to their cost.
Right now, the primary reason to hit L2 in most mods is just the moho extractors, spies, and artillery units (including sharpshooter as "artillery" since that's how players use it) .... which doesn't make a lot of sense. L2 combat units are a rare sight.
CA has a couple of mutators that make T2 instantly accessible. They are fun, and as a side effect, they help balancing a lot 
CA Deployment uses trepan's LuaRules Deployment gadget to allow you to buy units (including T2) and queue orders before the game starts.
CA Tactics is same as above, but all turrets, builders and factories are disabled.
You need the SVN build of Spring to play those, though.
CA Deployment uses trepan's LuaRules Deployment gadget to allow you to buy units (including T2) and queue orders before the game starts.
CA Tactics is same as above, but all turrets, builders and factories are disabled.
You need the SVN build of Spring to play those, though.
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Guessmyname
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 21:07
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Spawn_Retard
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: 21 Dec 2006, 14:36
There isnt a single mod that is 'TA-ish', AA has beamlasers and dedciated Anti Aair, thats about as big a change as you can get to the core gameplay of half the units. No, he wants to make changes that are not AA-ish (A mod with original gameplay), which is something different entirely.
Caydr did a very good job making AA an interesting mod, he just stopped development while still with an unfinished version, so Day and Noize took over. Same thing happened when Day and Noize stopped development of BA- Nixas AA came out, and got some following until the debacle over the name, BA being developed again, and Nixa giving up.
If a mod isnt kept up to date when the latest bugs and imbalances are found, its natural for it to fall by the wayside (or be picked up by someone else). We are all just amateurs here relying on the communities exploitation of problems before we can fix them, the weasel had virtually the same stats for ages, its just nobody had figured it out until 2.23.
Caydr did a very good job making AA an interesting mod, he just stopped development while still with an unfinished version, so Day and Noize took over. Same thing happened when Day and Noize stopped development of BA- Nixas AA came out, and got some following until the debacle over the name, BA being developed again, and Nixa giving up.
If a mod isnt kept up to date when the latest bugs and imbalances are found, its natural for it to fall by the wayside (or be picked up by someone else). We are all just amateurs here relying on the communities exploitation of problems before we can fix them, the weasel had virtually the same stats for ages, its just nobody had figured it out until 2.23.
Rather an inappropriate question to ask in a thread about Caydr, who is still responsible for most of #A.why doesnt quantum simply take his leet sx abilities and tack it into BA? make an uber collaboration, the Grat Balancer (Day) and the Grat sfxer (quanty)
I've had like 3 people say that the weasel was just as exploitable pre 2.23 but that really isnt true.
I'd watched probably around 5 attempts in 2.11 of players trying to spam weasels like you would in 2.23 and it was never very effective compared to 2.23
The 2.23 weasel was around 50% increase in hp and damage which made it very very different.
I'd watched probably around 5 attempts in 2.11 of players trying to spam weasels like you would in 2.23 and it was never very effective compared to 2.23
The 2.23 weasel was around 50% increase in hp and damage which made it very very different.
Good point. BA is _not_ TA-ish, unless you forget how OTA played.
Some fundamental differences between AA-style play and OTA - besides specific balancing differences (spaem moar flash):
1) Better L2 units. Ota L2 units were freaks.
2) Better mohos. This is a massive fundamental change - mohos are 90% of the reason to go L2.
3) air targetting.
4) Oodles of new units.
If players want to play OTA-style, there's BOTA (which has some specific differences, but is intended to be Basically OTA).
Likewise, XTA is fundamentally different from OTA in it's own list of ways. I think the main reason that AA was popular because of
a) Strong/cheap LLTs mean that it's easy to play defensively in the early-game, and
b) Oodles of new units, including some OMGWTFBBQ hardware.
c) Decently well-made.
Really, I think any TA mod with those three features could've had the same popularity.... but AA was the first to bring that to the table, so it took over. XTA was well-made, but it ate newbs for lunch, and it didn't have as big a unit-tree to explore.
Some fundamental differences between AA-style play and OTA - besides specific balancing differences (spaem moar flash):
1) Better L2 units. Ota L2 units were freaks.
2) Better mohos. This is a massive fundamental change - mohos are 90% of the reason to go L2.
3) air targetting.
4) Oodles of new units.
If players want to play OTA-style, there's BOTA (which has some specific differences, but is intended to be Basically OTA).
Likewise, XTA is fundamentally different from OTA in it's own list of ways. I think the main reason that AA was popular because of
a) Strong/cheap LLTs mean that it's easy to play defensively in the early-game, and
b) Oodles of new units, including some OMGWTFBBQ hardware.
c) Decently well-made.
Really, I think any TA mod with those three features could've had the same popularity.... but AA was the first to bring that to the table, so it took over. XTA was well-made, but it ate newbs for lunch, and it didn't have as big a unit-tree to explore.
