BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion! - Page 2

BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Subforum for the organization and gathering of competitive players to talk about the opportunities for competitive play. Post all tournaments notifications here.
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » 03 Nov 2012, 06:33

First of all, enemy Coms cannot be transported by your transporters anymore(noob change) so that's out of the way.
Second of all, Combombing using an atlas is impossible ATM, since the commander will not take full HP damage from a Com exploding above him in an Atlas.
The only thing you can do is transport a com nearby and walk to the enemy com.
Have good players make an LLT or two and you are done - no more noobs Combombing good players to win the team fight.
Blame box starting areas on "all in" strategies like starting near each other and assisting the same lab.

Play the game as is or soon you'll be playing with 30 min no rush...
The rule about not Comdropping in enemy base is absolutely unenforceable since its too vague..
Play the game as is and learn to deal with the currently available strategies.
Blame yourselves for not giving a shit about competitive play thus allowing these retarded cheese strategies in the name of "BA is done".
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 04 Nov 2012, 20:22

pintle wrote:It's hardly blind start build (in any way that is significantly different to 1v1) when you yourself point out you can have peepers in the air in under 30 seconds.
It's obviously different from 1v1. There you have 1 com in a set location, who's going to build 1 lab initially. In a team game you must choose on how many labs you'll do and where, with the availability to use Commanders as weapons. This variety makes the blind part of game much more decisive.
I was addressing your statement "It's not removing com transportation...proper build...". In a 3v3 *not* airdropping one of your coms, presuming a decent map size, is often limiting your expansion (and ergo eco) significantly.
And? Outside some really outlier maps, waiting till 2-3 minutes is the sensible thing to do economically, if all you're planning on is expansion.
Numerous other TA mods, and TA itself have fostered competitive clan communities for several years without arbitrary rules about using the tools that the game provides.
http://tadrs.tauniverse.com/ladder/information.php
Use of Commander

Any player may attack another commander with any unit at any time. During the first 10 minutes of the game no player may commander rush another players starting position (1 screen length of where he started). However, any base outside the players starting area may be commander rushed at any time. After the 10 minute mark anything goes.
Another example, from SC:BW this time - when 2v2 was played on television, you were not allowed to have both teammembers as zerg, since it was considered both too powerful and too boring.

I fail to see how "different to 1v1" carries any negative connotations. Your prejudice/comfort zone influence your subjective evaluation, but the game is not broken, the "blind start" is not particularly relative to com drop- bomber rushing is equally as viable/game changing.
Whether it's "different to 1v1" is really irrelevant. It's that it's different to how people have played, and presumably want to play, team games. If they'd want to really explore combombing why don't they do it already?

And no, bomber rushing doesn't compare as equally gamechanging. At all. Losing some mex or solar is hardly comparable to dgunned labs or totally leveled bases with 5k of wreckage.

There is no unequivocal way to implement "soft rules" on com drop/trans, so imo either change the game mechanics, or learn to play the game properly in a team context.
Sure. That's why I suggested a hard rule for it. It's basically the same as changing the game mechanics, just that it's done by tournament instead of mod administration.

You're free to prefer a game with blind combombing, but if others don't and come up with a mechanic that changes that, what's the issue exactly?
0 x

pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by pintle » 05 Nov 2012, 13:22

My issue is having that having successfully played competitive TA mods for several years, the BA competitive community always disgusted me with its handling of CB/drop in tourney. It is no different to NO NOOX or some other pussy-out restriction.

Yeah yeah you cite TAZONE, what about GBL? (where I actually played) I don't recall any of that nonsense during the couple of years I was lurking there.

"1 screen length" in a game with a totally free floating camera? Yeah k.... I press tab and cannot "commander rush" however you wish to interpret that, anywhere on the entire map. Great stuff.

Bomber rush can be MORE devastating to unprepared opponents- no units lost by attacker, no economic loss incurred, still got 3 coms nanolathing. In BA's great and perfect balance, no AA early in a team game = GG, presuming, of course, that the hypothetical 3 man bomber rush is not completely mishandled. Not sure which team games you are playing to see this as not the case.

I have no plans to play in this tourney, and I know for a fact I will not change the mind of a BAfanboi this late in the day. I just think it is hilarious that this debate still rages so many years later.

I hope the tourney is a success, I hope to see replays of interesting and unexpected team maneuvers, I expect to see lots of eco farming and T1 spam.
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 05 Nov 2012, 15:15

pintle wrote:My issue is having that having successfully played competitive TA mods for several years, the BA competitive community always disgusted me with its handling of CB/drop in tourney. It is no different to NO NOOX or some other pussy-out restriction.
So it's a totally ideological issue for you, and not really about gameplay?
Are balance patches pussying out too, since you are changing the game instead of just dealing with the old balance?

"1 screen length" in a game with a totally free floating camera? Yeah k.... I press tab and cannot "commander rush" however you wish to interpret that, anywhere on the entire map. Great stuff.
What the... Where did I say we should take old TA rules 1:1 into use? :lol:
Bomber rush can be MORE devastating to unprepared opponents- no units lost by attacker, no economic loss incurred, still got 3 coms nanolathing. In BA's great and perfect balance, no AA early in a team game = GG, presuming, of course, that the hypothetical 3 man bomber rush is not completely mishandled. Not sure which team games you are playing to see this as not the case.
That makes no sense. Really.
0 x

pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by pintle » 05 Nov 2012, 16:11

Johannes wrote:
pintle wrote:My issue is having that having successfully played competitive TA mods for several years, the BA competitive community always disgusted me with its handling of CB/drop in tourney. It is no different to NO NOOX or some other pussy-out restriction.
So it's a totally ideological issue for you, and not really about gameplay?
Are balance patches pussying out too, since you are changing the game instead of just dealing with the old balance?
My whole point is either patch it out of the game or use it. To keep mechanics in the game but ban them from "competitive" play= bad game design, or bad tournament design, take your pick.
Johannes wrote:
pintle wrote:Bomber rush can be MORE devastating to unprepared opponents- no units lost by attacker, no economic loss incurred, still got 3 coms nanolathing. In BA's great and perfect balance, no AA early in a team game = GG, presuming, of course, that the hypothetical 3 man bomber rush is not completely mishandled. Not sure which team games you are playing to see this as not the case.
That makes no sense. Really.
OK if you combomb with this reduced aerial explosion commander, which I am presuming still leaves a wreck, you can easily end up at a significant economic disadvantage. If you send a bunch of bombers and destroy every economic building, not even expecting a lab or a com kill, your economy has taken no direct damage (only the cost of the bombers). The option of distributed or focused fire, from faster (and dispersed) targets, which do not leave a game-changing corpse is clearly more appealing than risking a com. I expected that was be obvious. 3 players rushing bombers is, imo, significantly more likely to "cheese out" the one player you focus down than a com drop, which comes with a significant economic risk, beyond the downtime incurred even if it all goes swimmingly.

The comment about no early AA= GG is a joke playing on the extreme RPS balance of BA air, and the playerbase's propensity to completely neglect AA, in comparison to TA, XTA, ZK, SA, NOTA, every single other TA game I ever did play...
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 05 Nov 2012, 16:26

Oh my. Relax, don't think there's a need to craft out presumed argument fallacies from each others' posts when, I am pretty sure, we all know where we're coming from and what we mean.. :P

Now, I do think it is a valid argument to somewhat restrict com dropping into enemy base in initial game. It's not because it was an automatic win or automatic loss, or something that entirely one-dimensionalized the gameplay, but it is something that, I feel, introduces an element that more heavily leans on luck and guessing than what most players feel comfortable with and are accustomed to.

Obviously we will be going for rules that to the majority of participants are pleasurable to work with and as well are agreeable to those who actually run the tournament. It isn't about "pussying out" or anything, it's about doing what we think is the most interesting and enjoyable way to do it. Game and its mechanics are what we all agree to work with - whether they are laid down by the binary code of the host program or by the textual agreement of players, it's still all the same.

But in any case. I don't think the valid way to go about it is to stop early transferring of Commander or anything like that.

If we could get more voices heard in this, we can more easily come up with the best phrasing of the rule if it is to be implemented. So, all of those would be interested in participating to the 3v3 tournament, please share your opinion and I'll later start another thread for signing up with the rules based on the discussion here. :-)
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 05 Nov 2012, 16:40

With a comm you drop outside the enemy base and walk there. If wrecks are left, you're supposed to be the teams sucking them up. If you lose your comm there for no cause, sure, you lost. And that's it, you win or lose right then and there.

But rushing bombers with combined force of 3 players... It's just not very good, your economy will suck too much. You won't really do much more damage compared to just having one player assist the air lab, most important thing is to force aa. Doing bombers should not be a way to kill your enemy outright but to gain longterm advantage.

RPS-ness of BA air kinda sucks, I agree with that actually, but with extreme early game and bombers it's fine. There's nothing really cheesy about it.
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 05 Nov 2012, 16:50

Johannes wrote:With a comm you drop outside the enemy base and walk there. If wrecks are left, you're supposed to be the teams sucking them up. If you lose your comm there for no cause, sure, you lost. And that's it, you win or lose right then and there.

But rushing bombers with combined force of 3 players... It's just not very good, your economy will suck too much. You won't really do much more damage compared to just having one player assist the air lab, most important thing is to force aa. Doing bombers should not be a way to kill your enemy outright but to gain longterm advantage.

RPS-ness of BA air kinda sucks, I agree with that actually, but with extreme early game and bombers it's fine. There's nothing really cheesy about it.
Well, could we simply divide the battlefield through the middle and agree to that no commander can be flown to the other side of the middle line in first 5 minutes?

EDIT: Or that no commander can enter the other team's starting box during the first 5 minutes?
0 x

MrCucumber
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2010, 19:09

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by MrCucumber » 06 Nov 2012, 22:24

Make a mutator were the com is immune to Dgun and com explosion :) or ask behe really nicely to add that to mod options. Also I think a small team tourney with "no com, no control" could be really good, cause a strategy to share lab and self-D one com for metal later would probably beat all others.
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 07 Nov 2012, 12:28

MrCucumber wrote:Make a mutator were the com is immune to Dgun and com explosion :) or ask behe really nicely to add that to mod options. Also I think a small team tourney with "no com, no control" could be really good, cause a strategy to share lab and self-D one com for metal later would probably beat all others.
Small maps get problematic when you can lazer a comm to death and stay alive. Or any map if you want to enforce such situation - drop 2 comms vs 1?


And self-ding comm is not quite as good as using it suicidally. Then you'll kill enemy stuff while still getting the wreck unless you really screw up.
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 07 Nov 2012, 15:56

Well, I'm going for this ruling and put up the signing-in thread soon unless someone thinks there's some fatal flaw in it:

- No commander may enter the opponent team's starting box area during the first 5 minutes of the game.

Think the tournament type is single elimination, best of 3 wins. Single Elimination with teams is probably a bit less random than with 1v1.
0 x

klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by klapmongool » 07 Nov 2012, 17:41

tzaeru wrote:Well, I'm going for this ruling and put up the signing-in thread soon unless someone thinks there's some fatal flaw in it:

- No commander may enter the opponent team's starting box area during the first 5 minutes of the game.

Think the tournament type is single elimination, best of 3 wins. Single Elimination with teams is probably a bit less random than with 1v1.
Draw boxes on map at/before gamestart?
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 08 Nov 2012, 17:15

Use.. Starting boxes? :P
0 x

klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by klapmongool » 08 Nov 2012, 17:50

tzaeru wrote:Use.. Starting boxes? :P
Sure, but just to be clear.. This rule requires the players to manually draw the boxes on the map before gamestart?
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 08 Nov 2012, 19:25

klapmongool wrote:
tzaeru wrote:Use.. Starting boxes? :P
Sure, but just to be clear.. This rule requires the players to manually draw the boxes on the map before gamestart?
I'd imagine that it's quite easy to remember the approximate point where the box edges run.

Rulings such as these are anyway used only in case where one of the teams feels it was broken in a manner that caused their defeat; In that case, the replay is checked. Hence the responsibility of not crossing it is, is purely on the hands of the guilty team and drawing lines on the map is up to them if they think they wouldn't remember where the edge runs.

If people really are childish enough to only care for trying to break every existing rule, I don't think there's going to be much of a point or fun to be gained from tournaments anyway.
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 08 Nov 2012, 20:29

It's not about breaking the rules. That's forbidden obviously. Just that you need to know beforehand where the line is exactly, in case that going right next to that line is beneficial.


Not entering enemy start box is a big change on small maps even when air is not used, not sure if it's a good way to go.
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 08 Nov 2012, 22:54

Johannes wrote:Not entering enemy start box is a big change on small maps even when air is not used, not sure if it's a good way to go.
It's a big change during the first 3 minutes?
0 x

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 09 Nov 2012, 00:45

Not on CCR it isn't, but if you want to play smaller maps - Altair, Small Divide, Metalheck, or even something like Bluebend with the close position starts, it is a big restriction.

Most of all it shuts down moving 1 comm forward without it building a lab, in a 3v3. Sure you could try that in 2v2 too but it's not so good there... And on those 8x8 maps it has effect even if you make a lab with each comm. It's easy to think of situations where it matters.

Though of course 3 minutes is much less than the original 5.

Compare to the flying restriction for first 2-3 minutes. I can't think of too sensible things you'd want to fly your comm away for before 2 min mark, that don't include instant dgun/bomb plan.


But well, to make proper educated decision you should just play around with the current trans/comblast mechanics in 2v2/3v3, to properly see how it works, what timings it uses, are they actually worth banning, and what hard rules actually work at it.
Then see if you can actually win games by breaking that hard rule while not comdropping on enemy base. If you can't, then it might just work.
0 x

tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 09 Nov 2012, 17:53

Johannes wrote:Not on CCR it isn't, but if you want to play smaller maps - Altair, Small Divide, Metalheck, or even something like Bluebend with the close position starts, it is a big restriction.

Most of all it shuts down moving 1 comm forward without it building a lab, in a 3v3. Sure you could try that in 2v2 too but it's not so good there... And on those 8x8 maps it has effect even if you make a lab with each comm. It's easy to think of situations where it matters.
I really have to disagree. The starting boxes on those maps are generally not so huge that you couldn't walk forward without a lab. In Small Divide for example, the typical starting box size is 25 or 30; You could walk to almost LLT reach of enemy bases. O_o

But yeah, maybe worth testing around a bit more.
0 x

klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by klapmongool » 09 Nov 2012, 20:20

tzaeru wrote:
Johannes wrote:Not on CCR it isn't, but if you want to play smaller maps - Altair, Small Divide, Metalheck, or even something like Bluebend with the close position starts, it is a big restriction.

Most of all it shuts down moving 1 comm forward without it building a lab, in a 3v3. Sure you could try that in 2v2 too but it's not so good there... And on those 8x8 maps it has effect even if you make a lab with each comm. It's easy to think of situations where it matters.
I really have to disagree. The starting boxes on those maps are generally not so huge that you couldn't walk forward without a lab. In Small Divide for example, the typical starting box size is 25 or 30; You could walk to almost LLT reach of enemy bases. O_o

But yeah, maybe worth testing around a bit more.
Bluebend... :P
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Tournaments”