BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

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tzaeru
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BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 18 Oct 2012, 18:52

Heya,

I was wondering how many teams could we get together for a BA team tournament!

If we first can get notice of interest from at least 5 groups, we could start arranging something and start discussing possible times and so.

Currently I'm envisioning the earliest possible time to be three weeks from now on Saturday or Sunday. That is, it'd be 10th or 11th of November.

So if your group of 3 players, be it a clan or occasion-specifically made team, could make it one of the coming weekends to a team tournament, please post here. :-)

Also 100% open for discussion of the subject here.
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albator
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by albator » 18 Oct 2012, 19:23

You need seriously clear rules with com flmiying to base, or/and combom if you do team game, 2v2 is hard already, 3 is a mess imo.

Otherwise the best player get instant combom by noob at start
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tzaeru
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 19 Oct 2012, 14:52

Well, that is counterable.

Additionally, if it does happen, the team mates can share stuff to the best player. Also with 3v3, using a com for early combomb can easily work out against your favor by the enemy team reclaiming both the coms.

What about timing? Should it be ran in a single day, or over say, a week?

And if you know teams, clans or people who'd be interested, nudge them and have them post here the team/clan that is interested so we can start working with the timing and stuff. :)
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Beherith
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Beherith » 19 Oct 2012, 15:26

Albator is right in this case. Commbombs make 2v2 team games difficult.
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tzaeru
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 19 Oct 2012, 15:40

Okay, I suppose there can then be a time limit to when combombing comes allowed?

Also, are you guys referring solely to combombing base or also to combombing front?

In the latter's case, it would be hard to make a rule about it, since it can be a valid tactic against rapid advance or heavy porc in a map that allows it.
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marciolino
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by marciolino » 19 Oct 2012, 15:54

Yeah, a rule like: no combomb before 10 minutes could work.
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albator
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by albator » 19 Oct 2012, 19:49

Combomb is part of the game imo.

The usual rule is : "no comdrop into ennemy base before 10 min."

This rules is difficult to interpretate since you can still fly close by then walk...


A rule that makes no misunderstanding possible is: "no com can be put
inside a trans before 10 min."

But this just remove all the air start strategy, so be sure to chose only map where no air start is OK.

your call....
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Ares
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Ares » 21 Oct 2012, 13:19

I don't understand the problem with combombs, if the enemy play right they get 2.5k m straight away and in a 3v3 situation dedicating one player to early scouts and one to early fighters or tactically placed jetthros seems like common sense?

In public games I can see how the lack of coordination would cripple teamwork but in a tournament situation people should be able to overcome such problems.
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marciolino
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by marciolino » 22 Oct 2012, 11:41

Ares, the problem is before 5minutes you have small eco and build power and all your units are really important at this moment.
If you get combombed at your base probably you will lost all your small eco, cons, etc... so what can you do with 2.5k metal?
It is even hard to protect the metal you got from the combomb because the other team probably kept safe some units to raid you just after the combomb.
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tzaeru
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 22 Oct 2012, 12:43

We can just formulate the rule something like this: "Using a Commander to target enemy base facilities within the vicinity of the enemy player's starting spot during first 10 minutes is forbidden (i.e. no combombing/comdropping to or near by enemy starting locations until 10th minute mark!)"

It's clear enough and obviously everyone knows what it means. If they do it anyway and claim that the rule was ambiguous, they're just trolling and can be removed from the tournament.

Are there other rules that may be necessary?

And also, start dropping in names of teams! 8)

[Bro] will get 3 dudes in.

If we've 4, 5 teams by when the next Sunday's 1v1 tournament is done, I'll make a new topic solely for discussing timing for the participants.
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albator
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by albator » 22 Oct 2012, 13:56

On small map with cliff, or pur air map, or map with low metal total income (<40/sec/ player), that DOES is ambiguous. So you better really check all your maps. Plus I saw very interesting game with good 1v1 player (not as good as anyone playing in the last tournament tbh) with air start in 1v1 map where com was move from its start pos with a trans (after player did a 1 bomber star), landed on middle on another spot of the map to grab mexes, and then walking a bit and Dguning enemy base while he was busy fighting army.

Conclusion is: draw clear rules or expect fail and be prepared to ban some of the good player from your tournament.

I suggest you to pick map where air start are irrelevant and to forbide any com to be transported before 10'
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tzaeru
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 22 Oct 2012, 16:40

I really disagree on the transporting of com. I find it a very valid and interesting tactic in small team games to gain a bit of a head run in grabbing mexes and establishing a light defense line beyond the middle of the map.

There's no reason why the other team can't do it too and additionally, you can counter it with few fighters quite well. :P

But of course, if majority of people think that transportation in itself needs to be forbidden until 10th minute, then it will be. Don't think of this as my tournament, but everyone's who are in it. I just do the brackets, poke people about it and make sure that there are enough free hosts.
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albator
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by albator » 22 Oct 2012, 17:09

Don't misunderstand me, I also find that is a really nice tactic but I think eventually, you will get some cases where it will get border line and a choice will has to be mad that will make people angry cause rule was no clear and enemy was not expecting such a "rule breaking"

To avoid that I would suggest:

"If a com has been transported into a transporter, it is not allow to cross the start-box of the enemy team before 10 min. "

In that case there is no ambiguities about how far it should lend from the base
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Johannes
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 22 Oct 2012, 19:06

I don't see the need for it to be 10 minutes though, it could be much shorter and still disallow gambling on combombing a base.

Let's say you can only pick a com up until ~3 minute mark. It's simple to enforce, allows for most other air starts just fine, but blindly combombing before they have a chance to scout and build aa is seriously nerfed. Still sometimes possible with those timings, yes, but too risky.


And "targeting base facilities" is really really ambiguous... Where does a base begin and end? And what if I got there by walking only, what's the problem supposed to be then?
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tzaeru
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by tzaeru » 29 Oct 2012, 00:52

Johannes wrote:I don't see the need for it to be 10 minutes though, it could be much shorter and still disallow gambling on combombing a base.

Let's say you can only pick a com up until ~3 minute mark. It's simple to enforce, allows for most other air starts just fine, but blindly combombing before they have a chance to scout and build aa is seriously nerfed. Still sometimes possible with those timings, yes, but too risky.
I don't think removing com transportation is the way to go. Immediately flying to center of map and doing some LLT and so is a good and used tactic.

Do you think it'd be clear enough if coms just aren't allowed to enter the starting box of enemy team in first 5 minutes or, if no starting boxes are in, not closer than quarter on x and y -axis (e.g. not closer than !split 25 boxes gives) towards enemy side/corner?

I know my phrasing of the above isn't perfect and the clearest there is, but I think the concept I go after here is very clear to everyone, as this just means you can't walk into the box given by !corners 25 or !split 25.

You still can bomb a com by walking/flying into it if it's beyond the box, but I feel this is something that is more realistic to be prepared for than dropping in base and dgunning everything.
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Johannes
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 30 Oct 2012, 11:22

It's not removing comm transportation. About only proper build it disqualifies is flying straight for enemy base asap, check the timings. Make it 2 min to be sure if you want.
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nrv
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by nrv » 31 Oct 2012, 22:06

FLM could send 3 guys if Zorro comes back home ! ;-)
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pintle
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by pintle » 01 Nov 2012, 23:28

Johannes wrote:It's not removing comm transportation. About only proper build it disqualifies is flying straight for enemy base asap, check the timings. Make it 2 min to be sure if you want.
In the context of a team game you can focus build and do this very very quickly, 3 minutes is a relatively long time in those terms.

Imo grow some balls and let people comdrop. The whole point of clan/organised team play in an rts is to enable close coordination, and access to strategies that are not viable in 1v1/public games.
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Johannes
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by Johannes » 02 Nov 2012, 02:59

pintle wrote:
Johannes wrote:It's not removing comm transportation. About only proper build it disqualifies is flying straight for enemy base asap, check the timings. Make it 2 min to be sure if you want.
In the context of a team game you can focus build and do this very very quickly, 3 minutes is a relatively long time in those terms.
Do what very quickly? Sure, you can build air fast, with coordination you can have an airlab and a trans done in about half a minute. It's just, outside of combombing someone, it doesn't really make much sense - you're just gimping yourself economically on 98% of maps. It's simply better to build more econ or a bomber, plus some turret, before flying out.

3 min mark is probably needlessly much though, it does prevent any and all blind combombing, but 2-2,5 should give the chance to scout it too. While allowing a bit more diversity in what kinds of airstarts are sensible.

Imo grow some balls and let people comdrop. The whole point of clan/organised team play in an rts is to enable close coordination, and access to strategies that are not viable in 1v1/public games.
Turning the game into something completely different than 1v1s or pub games is not really sensible, at least when you'd mostly be turning it into blind starting build RPS.
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pintle
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Re: BA TEAM tournament - time & teams for discussion!

Post by pintle » 02 Nov 2012, 22:05

It's hardly blind start build (in any way that is significantly different to 1v1) when you yourself point out you can have peepers in the air in under 30 seconds.

I was addressing your statement "It's not removing com transportation...proper build...". In a 3v3 *not* airdropping one of your coms, presuming a decent map size, is often limiting your expansion (and ergo eco) significantly.

You are not "turning the game into" anything: this is how the game has been balanced for its entire lifespan, you have not been playing it in that way. Numerous other TA mods, and TA itself have fostered competitive clan communities for several years without arbitrary rules about using the tools that the game provides.

I fail to see how "different to 1v1" carries any negative connotations. Your prejudice/comfort zone influence your subjective evaluation, but the game is not broken, the "blind start" is not particularly relative to com drop- bomber rushing is equally as viable/game changing.

Are you going to be allowed to com nap in the first 2 minutes? (while the com on a team of 3 1v1 players is still standing still to nanolathe up his lab)

There is no unequivocal way to implement "soft rules" on com drop/trans, so imo either change the game mechanics, or learn to play the game properly in a team context.

I see "no com drop" as exactly the same as "no flash rush" or whatever other bullshit rules people wish to impose to suit their playstyle.
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