Discord My Content - Page 2

Discord My Content

For the discussion of infrastructure improvements and changes.

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abma
Spring Developer
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Joined: 01 Jun 2009, 00:08

Re: Discord My Content

Post by abma » 30 Jun 2017, 01:41

gajop wrote:Sorry but how is this any different from IRC bots?

https://freenode.net/policies

the license basicly looks compatible, see "Public Logging". Thats what someone usually expects in public irc-like chat.
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sprunk
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Jun 2015, 07:36

Re: Discord My Content

Post by sprunk » 30 Jun 2017, 15:28

smoth wrote:
sprunk wrote:stuff you say in a public place is automatically public domain.
is that the license of said content?
Regular chat is public domain. To post anything that already has a different license (eg quote from a paper, or a copyrighted image) you need to have the permission to spread it in public, this grants everyone in public the implicit sublicense to hear it. The license that Discord gets is pretty much the same as this implicit license, just they have to make it explicit because Discord channels are not necessarily public (they can be invite-only for example). Note that they cannot sell this content - they have a right to sublicense it (which means they can just spread it further - in practice, since the sublicense can be given "in connection with operating and providing the Service", this means they get the ability to display your messages to the people in your discord room) but cannot charge any money for it because it's "royalty-free".

As for the uberserver TOS https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sprin ... eement.txt
information that is not publicly visible will not otherwise be disclosed to any third party without your consent
This just says:
* information that is NOT publicly visible won't be disclosed. That's things like PM, not unpassworded channels.
* it's about uberserver not disclosing the info. Users still can.
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nixtux
TechA Developer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009, 15:36

Re: Discord My Content

Post by nixtux » 30 Jun 2017, 17:12

Sorry by I don't see spring as public, you need to register an account then sign in with your password at that point every channel is password protected ergo no public.
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sprunk
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by sprunk » 30 Jun 2017, 17:36

Channels are not password protected, accounts are. Registering an account is available for everyone.
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nixtux
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by nixtux » 30 Jun 2017, 18:00

https://github.com/spring/uberserver/bl ... ol.py#L114
The fact there is a ban system means it's not open to everyone
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hokomoko
Spring Developer
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Joined: 02 Jun 2014, 00:46

Re: Discord My Content

Post by hokomoko » 30 Jun 2017, 18:12

The fact there is a ban system means it's not open to everyone
Everyone who abides by the ToS.

IMO It's currently unclear from Uberserver's ToS what rights you grant other users wrt what you say on chat.


Anyway, from reading Discord's ToS, it doesn't seem they claim to own your content, only that you agree that they can do stuff with it as part of their service. You don't lose any right you had to your content. I see it in a similar way to how being GPL, people can sell spring or spring games, but we damn well have rights to our code.

wrt solution, I don't believe in banning Nightwatch unless it breaks the ToS, and at the moment I believe it doesn't, so I think the pitchforks could wait. How about instead of flamewars and threats we discuss it in chat like grownups?

As to changing the ToS of uber, you can either:
1) Allow users to reproduce and distribute the chat logs and inform users that uber is a public chat.
2) Limit the rights of users on chat logs. Other than the fact that it will be very complex to correctly define what's allowed and what isn't, it will also make me very sad.

Anyone got a creative solution that doesn't deepen the community split?
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 30 Jun 2017, 19:32

I do not really care for fights over TOS an such. I can only say that I instinctively do not expect a protocol of my chat to appear in the web.

The argument that only because something is not a secret, it can just be put on a website is not valid for me.

Just because your door, your window and your name on the bell is public (as everybody on the street can see it), making a photo of you in front of you house, with your neighbor and putting it on the web together with your name isn't OK. It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it is OK.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Jun 2017, 19:45

But in this case, that analogy is a strawman.

Unless you've forgotten, discord is a web app, so putting stuff "on a website" isn't as nefarious as you make it out to be.

By your definition, SWL is violating your privacy.
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 30 Jun 2017, 21:38

That's exactly my point:
  • Discord is a web app, so I expect stuff I write there to be on the web.
  • Springlobby is not a web app, so I expect stuff I write there to not be on the web.
I don't know what SWL is.
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sprunk
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Joined: 29 Jun 2015, 07:36

Re: Discord My Content

Post by sprunk » 01 Jul 2017, 00:45

hokomoko wrote:How about instead of flamewars and threats we discuss it in chat like grownups?
In chat?! B-b-but the chat would be relayed to Discord! :P
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by Forboding Angel » 01 Jul 2017, 08:26

dansan wrote:I don't know what SWL is.
SWL stands for Spring Web Lobby.

Also, because of the IRC bots, relay has been done for years with the same licenses and even easier access because I don't even need to give IRC as much as a username to join. At least with discord, at the minimum security settings I have to give it a username.
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dansan
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 01 Jul 2017, 09:28

Hm. yeah... well my problem is not that it's public, but that it gets archived and indexed.
It concerns me deeply, that everything people do - including their interactions - gets archived for later analysis.
I don't want my conversations to be archived by anyone else, than those I have them with.
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sprunk
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by sprunk » 01 Jul 2017, 23:13

dansan wrote:I don't want my conversations to be archived by anyone else, than those I have them with.
That's what PM and private channels exist for.
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 02 Jul 2017, 01:02

sprunk wrote:
dansan wrote:I don't want my conversations to be archived by anyone else, than those I have them with.
That's what PM and private channels exist for.
Who are you to decide that?
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dansan
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 02 Jul 2017, 01:05

dansan wrote:
sprunk wrote:
dansan wrote:I don't want my conversations to be archived by anyone else, than those I have them with.
That's what PM and private channels exist for.
Who are you to decide that?
Hmm... that came out personal. What I meant is "That is not a given, but something that can be decided upon."
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sprunk
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Re: Discord My Content

Post by sprunk » 02 Jul 2017, 02:39

dansan wrote:That is not a given, but something that can be decided upon.
I see three alternatives here:
  • some channels are considered public by consensus. This is the solution that is currently in place. Until now, nobody actually using those channels seemed to mind chat being archived (and some enjoyed the convenience). Once the people who have a problem with that start being numerous then the consensus could be challenged but as far as I can tell currently it's just nixtux and abma and it's kinda too late since the presence of bots has solidified the status. I think it's an elegant solution because it self-moderates which channels belong to which category and has worked so far. However it would create gray areas in case more people became paranoid so it might make sense to pre-emptively use one of the two below (or something else altogether).
  • all channels that are not passworded are considered public. I think this is the most elegant solution because it ties the public status to something obvious and technical (unlike consensus) which prevents uncertainty. It does make it slightly difficult to create an accessible yet "safe" space but in practice nobody is going to come gathering logs from rooms that are not public by consensus.
  • some channels are explicitly considered public. This is an inelegant solution because it requires an arbitrary list of channels to be maintained and conveyed to users. However it has the benefit of making it easy for paranoid people to create safe spaces which would be useful at preventing their complaints and as long as the channels are picked based on consensus it's for all practical reasons the same as the first solution.
  • no channels are public. It's definitely the simplest solution but prevents the people who don't mind from enjoying convenience features which is why I think any of the above three would be better.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 9950
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Discord My Content

Post by PicassoCT » 02 Jul 2017, 07:32

Thus the Discord-Concordat was signed and everybody returned to the vendettas and work of olden times.
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Joined: 29 May 2010, 23:40

Re: Discord My Content

Post by dansan » 02 Jul 2017, 21:38

Thanks sprunk for the list of options. While reading them I realized I cannot really say which I personally like most. At the end I thought, that I could probably live with them all, if two things were given:
  • the channels welcome message (or similar) would give me a hint about a relay being active for that channel → transparency
  • there would be a way to [de]activate the relay for a channel, that would work "democratically" like the voting system in autohosts → power of decision for/against a relay is with those being relayed. (It could be auto-[re,de]activated after a while, to return to some default.)
I don't know about technical difficulties with this, but I'd consider it fair. It would then be my decision to stay in the channel or leave it or try to sway my peers to change the setting - just like it is in autohosts with my map preference.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Discord My Content

Post by Forboding Angel » 03 Jul 2017, 04:18

dansan wrote:I don't want my conversations to be archived by anyone else, than those I have them with.
Melbot has been active for like 10 years. #sy and #moddev have been publicly accessibly by a single click to anyone on the internet for a decade at least. This site used to even link to a 1 click #sy irc joiner thing (maybe it still does via one of the subdomains?).

Doesn't IRC keep history? Additionally, the relay bot would store a copy as well.

It's safer to understand that whatever you are doing on the internet, if it isn't an SSL connection. It's public (and even with SSL that could be a bit dubious).
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Discord My Content

Post by PicassoCT » 03 Jul 2017, 07:39

Eh, just sayin.. the conversations on irc (at least for sy and moddev) where taken by me, datamined by me and (at least tryied) to train into a NN.
So if discord just arch-Nemesis-Hives it - its way behind on the evil doing quota in regard to me.

Sorry. I just wanted to make a stack-overflow conversation bot.
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