Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

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yanom
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Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

So I discussed with oksnoop2 about how CT is like the most micro-heavy Spring game out there. This is good IMO, it distinguishes CT from other spring games. However, I think too much of the micro is microing workers:

NKG: Resource drop-offs must be morphed and unmorphed, and flown around.
Drones: Workers must be morphed into towers and then unmorphed.

But, there's like nothing to micro on war units like tanks or planes.

I think we should make it so that most of the micro is on war units, and workers should mine pretty much automatically.

Think, for example, of Starcraft or Command and Conquer: The miner units pretty much just drove around and mined by themselves, but soldier units had to be microed, and there were all these cool abilities they had that you could activate that made microing them fun.
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

Hojo and Honda: Jumpjet
Ueda missile mech: Sprint
Enkei anti-tank mech: cloak
Hashiba scout mech: builds camera towers
Taka anti-air truck: morphs back and forth between a turret mode

NKG mechs are designed to utilize these skills/spells/abilities. Its what gives them an edge over the tougher tanks.

The NKG's military has about as much "skill/spell" styled micro that you're going to see, give or take. While I agree that Starcraft had a good amount of micro, I personally despised the level of micro necessary in Warcraft 3.

You're absolutely correct about the mining though. I wish the miners were more intelligent. But there is nothing that I personally can do about it.
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

SanadaUjiosan wrote:
You're absolutely correct about the mining though. I wish the miners were more intelligent. But there is nothing that I personally can do about it.
GLaDOS wrote: The easiest solution to a problem is usually the best one
How bout:

1: making it so that NKG miners don't have to drop off their ore at a Resource Drop-off
2: making it so that Drone miners don't have to morph into towers to mine.
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

Nope. I speak for the NKG at least, in saying that I don't want to go that route. I won't compromise game design in the face of what is easiest. We stepped out of mexes for a reason.
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

ok. maybe instead, resource drop-offs don't have to morph back and forth from building to cruiser and can still be drop-offs without morphing?

For drones, maybe drones for could be set to automatically mine. There's code in Schwarm/YMSAI that could be reused for this.
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

Anyone else have ideas on reducing miner micro?
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

This has already been stated numerous times, but I'll say it here.

The miners themselves are already wonderfully automated. The problem with them lies in their persistence in mining; you have to manually turn them "off" to use them as a builder unit. When this is (somehow) remedied, I feel they will be a lot more usable.

As for the resource drop zones, I feel my desire for a better morph interface would help alleviate this as well. What I'd like is when you click on Morph, you get a faded model and the green build grid that you get when trying to place a building to build. When you pick you spot, the unit goes there, and morphs. Again, I think this would really streamline mining, in addition to the placement of factories.
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

Perhaps a mining on/off switch in control panel
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

And perhaps the resource zones could automatically seek resources like the miners do
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Pxtl
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by Pxtl »

Make morphing a longer operation. It's counterintuitive, but the *easier and more convenient* an operation is, the more likely you'll have to micro.

Easy decisions are small ones. Small, frequent decisions are micromanagement. By making the decision hard and expensive (and thus rare), you convert micromanagement into management.

Make the relocation of a resource depot more expensive (in terms of time/resources/whatever) and you'll see players doing it less.

And, of course, queues for *everything*.
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smoth
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by smoth »

yanom wrote:So I discussed with oksnoop2 about how CT is like the most micro-heavy Spring game out there. This is good IMO, it distinguishes CT from other spring games.
you need to play more of the other spring games.
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

Pxtl wrote:Make morphing a longer operation. It's counterintuitive, but the *easier and more convenient* an operation is, the more likely you'll have to micro.

Easy decisions are small ones. Small, frequent decisions are micromanagement. By making the decision hard and expensive (and thus rare), you convert micromanagement into management.

Make the relocation of a resource depot more expensive
Ok, but then we must make resources clumpier,
so that depots dont have to move so much. I think i know where in the lua gadgets this is (tp_resourcespawner.lua)
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knorke
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by knorke »

tp_resourcespawner.lua just spawns resources in the way it is told by the configs in mapconfigs\ folder or in the map.
if you want "clumpier" placement just make clumpier layouts...there is a guide for that on CT wiki.

If you mean the "place resources by metalmap" which it does if no config file is found: that is absolutely fail.
Both the implentation and for gameplay, even if it worked better. I wrote about that alot why it is useless to have that but everybody was like omgomgomomg what if people want to play non-CT_ maps and I was like then you just make a config for that map and then they were like no no must work without in case of DSD and i was like okay here take this and then nobody ever used it.

For miners being a bit stupid, well yes that is true.
Not so easy to make something that works good.
If it was for me, the eco would be a bit different anyway for example I do not like how you can land depots on rocks. Then the miners basically just sit there and spew dollar clouds without moving at all...
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

I agree with Smoth, I don't feel CT is as micro-heavy as some other games.

I am not completely opposed to your idea Pxtl. But, as yanom pointed out, resource placement may have to be worked on to work with this. But, as Knorke pointed out, this is handled by config files in the map/game.

Overall, yanom seems to want to completely or nearly completely automate the economy. Again, I don't speak for the drones, but this won't happen with the NKG. I hate automatic economies. Overall I feel, compared to other games outside of Spring, CT does not require as much resource management as other games. 2 resources, energy is pretty lackadaisical. Just build some power plants and go. Metal is a bit more of a hassle, but there isn't a huge jump between the usual "build a drop off building, and gatherers gather" and our "place a drop off building, have the gatherer's gather" The biggest hassle is really when building comes into play.
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smoth
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by smoth »

automated economy in your resource model would suck. might as well go back to a ta economy. That is part of your game, to have to handle the mining operation and something that makes it UNIQUE. That is something I do not have any issues with when it comes to your game.
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

smoth wrote:automated economy in your resource model would suck. might as well go back to a ta economy. That is part of your game, to have to handle the mining operation and something that makes it UNIQUE. That is something I do not have any issues with when it comes to your game.
EXACTLY!

We can try to make the process less painful, but as a whole what you're seeing is what it is going to stay as.

Maybe something in the mining script to just turn off the automated seek resources if the unit is given a build order? Or does the build order only trigger once (invisible) nano's start flying? Aka, does it count for the movement to a buildsite?
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

It's ok, Sanada, I was just brainstorming. I'm not out to kill your NKG economy.

But, I think we should get rid of energy altogether. This was mentioned before, and I think it's a good idea - energy seems wimpy and useless, just build three power plants and forget about it, you're set for the game. There's no need to carefully and skillfully control your energy economy like there is in, say, BA or ZeroK.

Also, would anyone mind if I made the resources clumpier at game start? Of course, I would have to figure out how to do this first, and besides, I don't get back home till the 24th
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

What do you mean by clumpier? I'd like pictures or diagrams or something.

I feel what we have now is sufficient. And, as knorke said, resource placement is determined by a config file either in the map, or one that rests in the game itself. Whatever you're wanting to achieve could be achieved there I think.
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knorke
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by knorke »

http://code.google.com/p/conflictterra/ ... psAndRocks

I made layouts for those maps:
http://code.google.com/p/conflictterra/ ... _Placement

What I tried was to put resources in a "clumpy" way compared to metalspots which are basically always evenly sprinkled around a map.
Still tried to spread the rocks out a bit so you can not land your depots on top of all rocks at once.
But of course you can place resources in whatever way you like.
That is the cool thing, no need to recompile the map to change the metalmap, just edit some text file.

also read some old threads on eco:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=24405
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=24263
yanom
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Re: Micro: Soldier micro = good, Worker micro = bad

Post by yanom »

Ok, so the lua file that defines the rocks is in the map archive?

What I mean by clumpier is that it should be so resources are bunched up.so you dont have to move your depots or drone miners so much
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