Re: NOTA 1.76
Posted: 07 Jun 2013, 18:40
ok, now i understand why norton hate this file(and the rest of nota)
Open Source Realtime Strategy Game Engine
I would try to prove this outcome a bit. But thanks for testing! Discussion about this is possible. After changes of armor of tanks in last releases (NOTA 1.67a) the balance was changed.MasterZH wrote:So i made few tests with Goli and Grayhounds today. I tested 1vs1 front to front fights. Conclusion:
Goli can kill Grayhound in 1vs1 fight = OK
Goli can kill 2 Grayhounds in 1vs2 fight = OK [40% HP left]
Goli can kill 2 Grayhounds in 1vs3 fight = wait wut?
Goli can kill 0 Grayhounds in 1vs4 fight = OK
Because they have superior range and and if goliaths get "in their range" there is enough splash dmg for all hungry units.[*] If you count with cheap bot spam for Goliath (fake aks targets), why you dont count with company for Greyhound
Well i did count with such answer and yes that is way to use them properly, however good player always try to keep goliaths on line and together in most key location on map to hold and push. But as you know even on huge open maps there is not always space to flank enemy freely - limited with map border or other forces. Until you get such situation to go "round-round" you will be stuck in standoff chill battle always 13 shots per goliath. Same as grayh can stay whole game "just out of goli range" you can have any type of land support you like, like rocko, you will be still outranged with superior firepower and splash madness. I know arm has different tactic and those need to be used for great victory but in less optimal conditions(flanking) i see the price and buildtime for grayh just too much and bit unfair.Thats huge difference! Tank armor in flanking concept is nothing cosmetic. Its mechanism with huge importance and cannot be ignored in such tests.
To general statement, but yes, we can generaly say, Greyhound is unit which shows its quality in bigger numbers or with company of other units.MasterZH wrote:1. If GH get critical mass sure they can "rule the world" and its not longer about numbers but tactic use on battlefield, maneuvers and micro.
MasterZH wrote:2. Its almost impossible to use range advantage vs Fidos. Extreme mobility will prevent any point of GH reverse to stay out of range, 50 range gap is just too small to make any difference between those 2(means as range difference). However health+armor on GH is far more superior and including 3-4 times more dmg per shot make fidos almost useless.(depending on map of course)
Here you get again to more general strategy thinking, not just Unit VS Unit comparation.MasterZH wrote:3.Back to GH vs Goli thing. Unless you have 80x80km map with same numbers Goli will push you literally "to dead" rolling your base freely without stopping. Range advantage is nothing if enemy can just pwn you by continuously moving forward(open maps).
True, if both sides knows just "Steamroller" style of play.MasterZH wrote:Again they have (almost) same cost, build speed so you get same numbers = total pwnage until you stop in middle of the battlefield to "chill-up" and get eaten.
Greyhound is good in combination with toad as i mentioned above. Yes, Goliath is bloody enemy (a lot HP, great armor, decent weapon and deadly in attack). Clever way how to fight with Goliath is not to kill Goliath first, but attack Goliath production facility and then hunt remaining Goliaths on battlefield and slowly grow your Greyhounds numbers.MasterZH wrote:Considering GH as closest and most powerful ARM counter-unit vs goli its seem like big disbalance. So i still think GH need small boost preserving all key tactics and features of this unit(as less powerful or "need to use brain instead brute force to win").
Naahh sorry, whole fidos thing was just out of context. My bad.PepeAmpere wrote: Fidos were...
What!? I fully understand how to use GH, also i never asked for any significant "enhancing" and you know goddamn well how is ARM meant to play. I made it clear that i "know" in last paragraph of my post.PepeAmpere wrote: For "Steamroller" player enhancing any setting of Greyhounds just results in one thing - all steamrollers stop to use Goliath as T2 ultimate weapon and start to spam Greyhounds as another, new, ultimate tech which needs no thinking and just microing and slow neverenging moving forward and pushing enemy back :).
We are not comparing cheeseburger with Aston Martin Vanquish. Correct me if i am wrong but isn't GH most clearly best and strongest counterweapon vs armored targets? Ok lets find the hardest/optimal armored enemy...hmm...what about....Goliath!PepeAmpere wrote: Here you get again to more general strategy thinking, not just Unit VS Unit comparation.
Do you want me to explain all general and advanced tactics used in NOTA together with conspiracy theories about WTTC or can we gently focus without adding every unit possible present on the battlefield?PepeAmpere wrote: The best answer for this is air dominance (and Toadfoot hunter for killing Goliath, if you want ARM counterweapon, or Penetrator).
Uh just missed this sentence. So does it mean that if you decide to counter golis with GH and air you will win? They cost the same so if ARM player decide to split production there will be even more disadvantage on the ground but air will save him? Do you really think golis are so easy to kill? Core player can spam golis faster then you trying to do air and land!(and if you already invested in air and he make few aa? will you switch again? remember that SPAM is still going on!) In long term arm win. But in 1vs1 type of game (or situation) golis spam is just too easy to produce and push. Grayhounds lack stopping/cost/whatever power to make fair fight even with support. They deserve a bit bigger chance or i am missing some magical unit combo/strategy to prove me wrong.PepeAmpere wrote: Against such enemy you trully cant use Greyhound as the only proper counterweapon.
It does do full anti-armor damage, but the greyhound still has pretty poor damage potential, so I don't know if it's really the best choice versus a goliath steamroll strategy. You could try using penetrators? Though that would only be viable if you had good protection from air attack. Bulldogs do fairly well versus goliaths in a 1v1 scenario (bulldog's cannon is fully armor penetrating while goliaths only do ~55% damage to heavy). But that doesn't really translate to most game situations where the goliaths are embedded with kbots. But maybe producing a couple bulldogs could force him to build more storms and fewer thuds and goliaths.MasterZH wrote:Correct me if i am wrong but isn't GH most clearly best and strongest counterweapon vs armored targets?
Point is that Core player dont need to "care" just to "build that stuff" while ARM player need to "do magic fast". ARM player need to run to stay out of range while goliaths just "continue rolling" even when you get twice as many GH-numbers. If you have wrecks on battlefield those grayhounds weak shots will not even reach the target... You say critical mass, yes true but if he decide to "race too and produce as many as possible" you will never get enough numbers(cost the same/build the same speed). I love that you need to use flanking and other ARM tactic features but you are playing "literally" 2vs1. Maybe it supposed to be this way like you dont have any quick answer for "Dominator spam".(from arm)Thor wrote: Then again, maybe the best strategy really is to try to build up that critical mass of greyhounds as quickly as you can. If you can get there there's not much he can really do without switching tech.
The quick answer is always air.MasterZH wrote:...Maybe it supposed to be this way like you dont have any quick answer for "Dominator spam".(from arm)
I like this!PepeAmpere wrote: [*] chain reaction killing of units in case of TeamCommDeath