NOTA 1.82

[Thor]

I think you overestimate the power of 3-4 bombers compared to other ground attack planes. Firstly there usually aren't any fusions around that early while geos and labs are quite cheap compared to the infrastructure(airlab and extra energy) you need in order to produce air. Bombs are quite innaccurate(espacially against targets like guardians, coastals and expansions) and the enemy might repair the target so its hard if to know if 2 or 5 bombers will destroy the target.
Secondly, vashps, toadfoots and hellfish can be used to kill cons and raiders even when the enemy have fighters while thoose 3-4 bombers usually need to go into enemy territory to find a suitable target.
Thirdly, players rarely build AA before they see enemy air and a few AA kbots won't do much against 3-5 toadfoots, vashps or hellfish.

low altitude mode helps bombers do a lot more damage especially against smaller targets like base expansions. I agree with your points though.

[nightcold]

well to be fair...there is a reason why law and goode never go strat in early ,mid and most late games(i think,i have not seen law play a for a while).....for rlly good payers i only see strats in ultra late game

in stead of paying all the metal for a dedicated anti-building bomber...why not spend the metal that dose both(vapships) but is not as good with buildings

[Gone]

Thirdly, players rarely build AA before they see enemy air and a few AA kbots won't do much against 3-5 toadfoots, vashps or hellfish.

That's probably because there's plenty of time between runs to set up some makeshift AA like SAMs or AAMGs. Otherwise it can be a bit of a waste of resources that could've been spent on some more k-bots or vehs.

[Godde]

You can make the queen crush wrecks and features. She already crush units.

[Thor]

The crush strength is already set to 500. A krogoth only has 150 and crushes features fine I think. So I don't know why the queen has trouble.

edit: tested on supreme lake and neither krog nor queen has problems crushing the rocks there. I think I remember the queen getting stuck on small supreme battlefield. It probably depends on how many hitpoints the features have.

[knorke]

http://answers.springlobby.info/questio ... l-interact

[Thor]

Thanks knorke. I'll try setting the crushstrength higher then.

[Godde]

The queen actually seems to crush wrecks fine its just hatracks and fury transportable laser turret wrecks she can't crush atleast.

Edit: corfury_dead.tdf
Damage=4545;
I changed it to Damage=545; and the queen would crush the wreck just fine.
Hatrack and fury use the same wreck.

[Godde]

Mobile coastals only have VTOL in badtargetcategory.
Stationary coastals have NOTAIR.
Also whats up with their unitnames?
Arm Perforator = canon3
Arm Avatar = AVTR
Core Omega = Omega
Core Demolisher = cordemo

[Godde]

The black hydra are missing noChaseCategory and chases air units.
The center of the unit is placed right on the upper edge of the hitsphere. Might cause weapons to miss more frequently.

[Thor]

The queen actually seems to crush wrecks fine its just hatracks and fury transportable laser turret wrecks she can't crush atleast.

Edit: corfury_dead.tdf
Damage=4545;
I changed it to Damage=545; and the queen would crush the wreck just fine.
Hatrack and fury use the same wreck.

Good catch. I'll change that for next version.

Mobile coastals only have VTOL in badtargetcategory.
Stationary coastals have NOTAIR.
Also whats up with their unitnames?
Arm Perforator = canon3
Arm Avatar = AVTR
Core Omega = Omega
Core Demolisher = cordemo

We never bothered to standardize the names on some of the third party units. The stationary coastals have NOTSHIP for badtargetcategory, meaning they prioritize ships over other targets. They have NOTAIR for onlytargetcategory, meaning they can't shoot at air. I'll change the mobile coastal bad category to NOTSHIP as well - I thought they already had that.

The black hydra are missing noChaseCategory and chases air units.
The center of the unit is placed right on the upper edge of the hitsphere. Might cause weapons to miss more frequently.

I'll add in the nochasecategory. There's nothing that can be done about the location of the center of the unit. Somebody screwed around with how spring calculates that stuff for 3do's a couple spring versions ago. I did make the hitbox taller in nota 1.66 for black hydra because sometimes even lasers were overshooting it. Probably cannons and stuff overshoot it more than they otherwise would, but I don't think it's too big a problem.

[law[nota]]

cant comment on the air nerfs, but i think they are generally a good idea, the toadfoot is arguably a bit shit though... it fires its missiles inaccurately and from quite close range, making them less surviveable.

im glad you like my carrier idea though draven (it wasnt nightcolds ^^)

the idea came from a game where i dominated sea, and i had alot of air, so i figured i would do big sustained aerial bombing attacks with a few carriers. it worked ok, but i found that its a pretty massive investment to try and build a)lots of labs, and b) lots of carriers.

[nightcold]

ok the doomsday/arm equivalent is basicly useless.....it is basicly a hlt that cost a fuck load of metal. in the later stages of the game when the doomsday is useally created it needs to be able to hold it own against large waves of kbots and arty......the d-days needs 2 be the anti-massed t1 kbot defence....

peewee could use a bit more speed imo, to be usefull in the mid game

when i send stat bombers 2 hit a target, when the do kill it.... instead of going 2 hit the next target after they reload..... they go ahead a hit where the pervious target was

[Godde]

I get lag at sometimes when i press a mex and the screen switches to metal view. If I press F4, for metal view, before I select a mex to build I don't get this problem.
It seems to happen frequently at small supreme battlefield dry and moon quartet for example.
Could it be some widget that keeps checking and drawing metal view when you have a mex selected?

[123vtemp]

nightcold,
NOTA is not BA. If there becomes a lot of anti mass units in NOTA then the late game will make a large part of the units unless... which would take away fromo the mod more then it would be any good. Core handles late game defense pretty well. Cans, Sumos, Levelers, t1 arty, Golies, Crabs, Imolators, Napalm, good unit formations all handle mass very effectively. Your arm equivalent to the DDM is devastating Sniping heavy tanks from the battle field at LONG range. One of the neatest parts of NOTA is that defenses do not do the job alone, but often bring range and dmg efficiency to the table.

[123vtemp]

Goddie,
If your running the CA mex finder widget that is your answer. It is a HOG.
Tho I doubt that is what is up.

[123vtemp]

Nightcold mentioned that good players do not use strat bombers in early game. Ever since they were changed they became less reliable which means use in low numbers early game is more of a gamble and is still not effective enough to warrant their use. The air balances actually caused me to stop playing NOTA. Before the moment land got bogged In stead of teching I would often to to air Juzza[NOTA] would do the same. IT was a costly choice back them but aggression usually played off so tho teching would be a wise economist's choice an aggression path using air was still a choice conciderable.

Tho the new strat bombers are fun... game play was more fluid with strat bombers that did more reliable carpet dmg, which some created a higher chance to kill a target building like a geo in fewer play loads. Building bombers off t1 eco has become to costly in time and resources to fit a common mid pre tech role.

on another note... 6-5 hell fish could be used at one time to get a kill on a punisher if their bomb drop was lined up just right. So at a cost of 900 m and a LOT of e and time they could counter a punisher effectively unless the enemy had a moderate force.

OTA had a punisher problem so much so that it was removed from later remakes. Having a possible t1 counter is important for game play. I have not tested toads.

Air also stabilized the combat field as superior tech hit the field, slowing an impending route to give the losing team an opportunity to mount a counter offensive.

I hope air balance is brought back to help the mid game and early deployment of t2 unit gameplay.

[Godde]

nightcold,
If there becomes a lot of anti mass units in NOTA then the late game will make a large part of the units unless... which would take away fromo the mod more then it would be any good. Core handles late game defense pretty well. Cans, Sumos, Levelers, t1 arty, Golies, Crabs, Imolators, Napalm, good unit formations all handle mass very effectively.

The DDM is just a noobtrap then since there is almost no reason to build it. 4 HLTs does a better job at preventing peewees and Flashes as a DDM barely can make cost against 18 Flashes while 20 peewees for half the cost can overrun it. What you get is 340 extra range on the big laser that does good damage against tanks but other units need to take care of the spam near the DDM.

Your arm equivalent to the DDM is devastating Sniping heavy tanks from the battle field at LONG range. One of the neatest parts of NOTA is that defenses do not do the job alone, but often bring range and dmg efficiency to the table.

The Annihilator might be good. I rarely used it if ever. When I see heavy defences I try destroy them by air and an Annihilator got less HP than a guardian. The annihilator get a armor bonus when they are closed but usually they will be open.

Pop ups get less HP and less DPS for higher cost which means that they are only really better than guardians if they stay closed when the enemy bombs it or nukes it. But the enemy might just bomb it while attacking with landforces and if they nuke the position you just lost that expansion builder aswell. Doesn't change much.

Really, the defence upgrade is more about making "offensive" defences such as nukes, big berthas, nuke cannons or buzzaws.
They also lack immolators(which is the best antispam defence in the game) and rocket boxes.

[Godde]

Nightcold mentioned that good players do not use strat bombers in early game. Ever since they were changed they became less reliable which means use in low numbers early game is more of a gamble and is still not effective enough to warrant their use. The air balances actually caused me to stop playing NOTA. Before the moment land got bogged In stead of teching I would often to to air Juzza[NOTA] would do the same. IT was a costly choice back them but aggression usually played off so tho teching would be a wise economist's choice an aggression path using air was still a choice conciderable.

Tho the new strat bombers are fun... game play was more fluid with strat bombers that did more reliable carpet dmg, which some created a higher chance to kill a target building like a geo in fewer play loads. Building bombers off t1 eco has become to costly in time and resources to fit a common mid pre tech role.

on another note... 6-5 hell fish could be used at one time to get a kill on a punisher if their bomb drop was lined up just right. So at a cost of 900 m and a LOT of e and time they could counter a punisher effectively unless the enemy had a moderate force.

OTA had a punisher problem so much so that it was removed from later remakes. Having a possible t1 counter is important for game play. I have not tested toads.

Air also stabilized the combat field as superior tech hit the field, slowing an impending route to give the losing team an opportunity to mount a counter offensive.

I hope air balance is brought back to help the mid game and early deployment of t2 unit gameplay.

So you think air is too weak now? Bombers haven't been changed in quite a while. The latest change where their ability to fly at low altitude and before that their damage to coms were decreased.

For me it's hard to pinpoint how strong air should be in NOTA. I think air can be nerfed alot more and still maintain some uses as anti-raider defence, killing cons and harrassing undefended groundtroops. The ability to go anywhere on the map fast and the ability to boost an assault by groundtroops without clustering them up more is hard to set a price on.

Although I really do like airplay and I wished hellfish would be somewhat stronger as vashps are so much easier to use and more reliable than toadfoots and hellfish.

I hope air balance is brought back to help the mid game and early deployment of t2 unit gameplay.

Do you think that t2 units dominate the field that badly now? I agree that that dominators, mavericks and fidos are juicy targets for air.

[nightcold]

i might add that if 123vtemp whent strat bombers last game i played with him when he was me put up a defender instead of hellfish...he eould have been fine.
personaly i dont think hellfish specifically should have been nurfed since they were already a very delicate plane...

i aslso think that both the med tanks and peewee need thier old speeds back...without their speed med tanks can not be usefull on huge maps and trying to out Maneuver kbots......peewees need to be able to reach thuds faster if they are to have any uses...

thier are alot of late game units that are thier not becasue they have a role to fill but simply becasue nota is a ta remake and we kind of need them thier for looks...ddm and aniolator is an example of that...it could very well be a t2 defender. just give it a ton more range and hp and more effective at takeing out mass number of units....(maybe have it be good at takeing out ships and koths and other ultra heavy units...it would need much more range for that and needs to Prioritize heavy units)

also, saboth(the core's postable tower) is very useless....it's range is much 2 short to have any practical uses vs armored units(with will rather be massed or outrange it)

is thor still aroud anyway?????